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Playing to a click track.


Monckyman
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[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1331651667' post='1576576']
So my mate who's a singer got pee'd off with paying all those (sometimes unreliable) bozos behind her and invested in some professional backing tracks and a decent PA and lights. She now makes a lot more money and can have all the effects and sounds that she wants, all programmed by another mate with a keyboard and a PC.

Downside of course is that the drummer, bassist, multi instrumentalist and guitarist are out of a job.

I think there's a slippery slope between being a live, gigging band who can be spontaneous and go with the flow, and a singer backed by a file of noughts and ones.

Steve
[/quote]

Ah ha, now we get down to it.

Is music making for the musicians / music makers or the punters?

For the musicians, fair dos (is that how it's spelt?) but the majority of punters don't know what they're getting and in my opinion are getting ripped off.

However, I was in our local a few weeks ago and the act turned up with all the techno bits and pieces as above and she could sing and perform very, very well within 45 minutes the "audience" had reduced from about 100ish to 6.

A large group of people left saying "I came to see a band, goin' up the road to see a real one".

Landlords comment was "OK, live bands from now on then, for the same fee!" - that's fine with me. :)

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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1331651616' post='1576574']
Amplification in modern music is about far, far more than just making the instruments louder. No matter how many acoustic guitars we double up it's never going to sound the same as a single guitarist with a Les Paul through a Marshall amplifier even on a "clean" setting.

Here's another question: Do you think the use of loopers (where you record part of your performance on the fly and then play along to it) any more "musically" acceptable than using a sequencer? IME the majority of the audience can't tell the difference and will assume that you're using a backing track.

I'm a self-taught bass player too. I'm also a self-taught guitarist, keyboard player, synth and sequencer programmer. I like to keep my options and mind open when it comes to creating and playing music.
[/quote]

Never used a looper or played in a band that has used one I'm afraid, so I can't really comment, but are they really necessary or are they just complicating things in a live situation? I don't know.

And, yup I'm an old git who started in the 60s, I play guitar and a lot of other things too but I just can't abide the synthetic, machined, highly digitized and produced stuff that's being pumped out today - just doesn't sound natural, is all.

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[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1331654598' post='1576653']
Ah ha, now we get down to it.

Is music making for the musicians / music makers or the punters?

For the musicians, fair dos (is that how it's spelt?) but the majority of punters don't know what they're getting and in my opinion are getting ripped off.

However, I was in our local a few weeks ago and the act turned up with all the techno bits and pieces as above and she could sing and perform very, very well within 45 minutes the "audience" had reduced from about 100ish to 6.

A large group of people left saying "I came to see a band, goin' up the road to see a real one".

Landlords comment was "OK, live bands from now on then, for the same fee!" - that's fine with me. :)
[/quote]

Music making is for musicians. Performance is for the audience. IMO the audience is only getting ripped if they're not being entertained. That's got nothing to do with the technology being used to perform the music and everything to do with how the musicians perform and interact with the audience.

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[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1331655125' post='1576664']
Never used a looper or played in a band that has used one I'm afraid, so I can't really comment, but are they really necessary or are they just complicating things in a live situation? I don't know.

And, yup I'm an old git who started in the 60s, I play guitar and a lot of other things too but I just can't abide the synthetic, machined, highly digitized and produced stuff that's being pumped out today - just doesn't sound natural, is all.
[/quote]

Jumpers for Goalposts.......... B)

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[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1331655125' post='1576664']
And, yup I'm an old git who started in the 60s, I play guitar and a lot of other things too but I just can't abide the synthetic, machined, highly digitized and produced stuff that's being pumped out today - just doesn't sound natural, is all.
[/quote]

And I'm probably only a few years younger than you.

Your attitude towards synthesisers and sequencers is exactly the same is my parent's attitude towards amplification, and in the end both are equally subjective and pointless.

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[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1331655477' post='1576675']
Jumpers for Goalposts.......... B)
[/quote]

Yeah and we played in the street until dark and ate worms and smoked cigarettes and we cut ourselves and mixed our blood to become bloodbrothers and had loadsa fun and we're still alive and gigging and smoking cigarettes and still having fun and being paid for playing live music. ;)

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[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1331655899' post='1576681']
Yeah and we played in the street until dark and ate worms and smoked cigarettes and we cut ourselves and mixed our blood to become bloodbrothers and had loadsa fun and we're still alive and gigging and smoking cigarettes and still having fun and being paid for playing live music. ;)
[/quote]

Skiffle band I guess...... B)

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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1331655695' post='1576679']
And I'm probably only a few years younger than you.

Your attitude towards synthesisers and sequencers is exactly the same is my parent's attitude towards amplification, and in the end both are equally subjective and pointless.
[/quote]

BigRedX, I accept all that you say and believe, it is all subjective and pointless but I still do not like hi-tech, over produced synthetic "live" music / acts.
Sorry.

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Lots of ridiculous luddite arguments being presented but not my concern.
I don`t have a problem with technology or machines playing "music".
Sorry Kraftwerk,Depeche Mode,Rammstein,Faithless,Underworld,etc someone thinks you don`t make music because it`s not played on a Souzaphone... dear me.
Thanks to those with practicaL help and advice (which is what I asked for, not an opinion on whether tracks were ethically justified).
Strange how some musicians can be so conservative....
Perhaps next time someone asks about the right D B pickup for a Skiffle band I`ll offer an unasked for opinion on whether Skiffle bands are actually music, seeing as a washboard isn`t a real instrument like....
MM

Edited by Monckyman
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[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1331660239' post='1576800']
Perhaps next time someone asks about the right D B pickup for a Skiffle band I`ll offer an unasked for opinion on whether Skiffle bands are actually music, seeing as a washboard isn`t a real instrument like....
MM
[/quote]

Can't find a decent washboard player round here, I just run ours off a sampler.

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Aghh one contentious thread at a time! It's getting a bit too much...


[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1331642939' post='1576354']
If it can't be played on an instrument by a human being it ain't music then, is it?
[/quote]

I know you've been picked up on this already, but I was wondering if you could explain you position on this a bit better than just this statement. What has made you think this? Are there examples?

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[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1331660239' post='1576800']
Lots of ridiculous luddite arguments being presented but not my concern.
I don`t have a problem with technology or machines playing "music".
Sorry Kraftwerk,Depeche Mode,Rammstein,Faithless,Underworld,etc someone thinks you don`t make music because it`s not played on a Souzaphone... dear me.
Thanks to those with practicaL help and advice (which is what I asked for, not an opinion on whether tracks were ethically justified).
Strange how some musicians can be so conservative....
Perhaps next time someone asks about the right D B pickup for a Skiffle band I`ll offer an unasked for opinion on whether Skiffle bands are actually music, seeing as a washboard isn`t a real instrument like....
MM
[/quote]

Sorry MM, this was not an attempt on my part to hijack your post or insult you, just an attempt to open the discussion a bit and wonder if a further search for a keyboard player was justified.
If I've come across as a comlete knob (I am one, I know) then I also apologise - I just do not like "techie machine" type music but I accept and support their right for the many others who do like it and play it.

Edited by Jazzneck
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[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1331663274' post='1576850']
Aghh one contentious thread at a time! It's getting a bit too much...




I know you've been picked up on this already, but I was wondering if you could explain you position on this a bit better than just this statement. What has made you think this? Are there examples?
[/quote]

It was something that was said to me years ago by an old school master when he was complaining about our amplified music - I just asked the question "it ain't music then, is it?" - not a statement.

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No worries, I`m not fussed.
I`m not a fan of electronic music myself, but I can`t deny that it is music.
I remember embarrassing myself in a college argument about the musical qualities of "turntabelists" with me vehemently denying they were musical instruments and most of the class calling me a luddite, so im not a million miles from how you feel.
I do want and would prefer, a decent keys player, who knew their technology and could emulate parts on modern pop tracks that go beyond a few chords on a Korg piano patch.
Sadly, that`s what we`re stuck with at the moment, and it`s making me frustrated.
I have absolutely no qualms about using tracks, nor do Coldplay, Gaga, Maddona, Doves,Stereophonics, Jesse J (nice band, BVs are on backing trax...) and countless others, who put on fantastic shows using technology to it`s fullest to entertain and inspire.
I don`t consider this to be ripping any punters off at all.
It is all about context though as others have said, and I wouldn`t expect a folk or jazz audience to appreciate a recorded sax solo etc..
A pop audience however is not so steeped in the "live" aspect of the performance and will not care so long as it`s entertaining.
I
IMO of course.
MM

Edited by Monckyman
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Thanks MM - you've pretty well described my real feelings exactly, I'm just not very good at expressing myself clearly with the written word.
I just prefer live stuff with the band/performer bouncing off the vibes from the audience and modifying "on the fly" accordingly. :)

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[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1331664659' post='1576886']
Thanks MM - you've pretty well described my real feelings exactly, I'm just not very good at expressing myself clearly with the written word.
I just prefer live stuff with the band/performer bouncing off the vibes from the audience and modifying "on the fly" accordingly. :)
[/quote]
The funny thing is that most bands that I've seen very rarely,if ever,actually modify "on the fly".Most of them
stick to very strict arrangement of tunes. If you are using clicks/tracks,it doesn't stop you from "bouncing off
the vibes of the audience" at all.
If the technology is a problem then I guess you're against bass players playing synth bass or drummers
augmenting their kits with electronics?

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I thought I'd share my experiences with click/backing tracks over the years in some of the bands I've played in. Like a few other posters have mentioned, for the most part the backing track side of things was driven by a mini disc player (as they could handle the vibrations on stage) fed into a mixer to allow the drummer and PA to receive the split stereo feed of click on one side and mono backing accordingly....very simple, reliable and idiot proof. In another band the drummer had a Roland SPD with percussive backing tracks stored as long samples, so would strike a pad to trigger the track and then play along.

Another set up I've come across was with one of my old guitarists who used a combination of a drum machine and noise gate to gate his guitar at a set tempo which the drummer could lock into...again very simple but sounded tight as a gnat's chuff live!

I've yet to play in a set up that relies on a computer running a live sequence (plus soft synths etc), so cannot offer much in the way of advice or experience there, but I'd say that by its nature, something like that is probably more prone to potential failure compared to something simplistic as the minidisc setup.

Finally IMHO any decent drummer should be capable of injecting a bit of push n pull by sitting on top or slightly behind the click during a song rather than just trying to match the click (which makes a subtle but nice difference to the vibe when playing live) making it less rigid for the rest of the band.

Edited by legoman
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[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1331715308' post='1577441']
Having played a lot of drums to click - yeh, you can "push and pull", but that's not the same as tempo changes which can really contribute to the "feeling" of a song.
[/quote]

I used to have tempo changes in my originals band. Because they were there naturally before we started using sampling we worked out the changes. If its an actual tempo change as appose to speeding up in the chorus because your excited it shouldn't be an issue with a bit of practice.

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[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1331715780' post='1577447']
I used to have tempo changes in my originals band. Because they were there naturally before we started using sampling we worked out the changes. If its an actual tempo change as appose to speeding up in the chorus because your excited it shouldn't be an issue with a bit of practice.
[/quote]

yeh i'm sure you can work it out with a sequenced tempo track, I've never tried, we just don't bother with a click for some songs! Pretty lazy I suppose

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