woolleydick Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I know this is but one aspect of cabinet performance, but who do you think makes the most efficient cabinets? I need something small light and loud - yes so does everyone else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Most efficient is going to be horn loaded cabs like Bill Fitzmaurice. Shame no bass cab manufacturer does anything similar and I cant help but wonder why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkThrust Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 +1 for Bill Fitzmaurice, although strictly speaking he doesn't actually make speaker cabinets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='143009' date='Feb 19 2008, 12:43 PM']... and I cant help but wonder why.[/quote] Hmmm.. yeah, this gets discussed a lot, but I would really love to here from some of the big manufatcurers to hear about not just the financial and manufacturing implications, but their take on the design itself. I have spoken at length with one of the head tech guys at Eminence. He was really helpful and had some interesting views on cab design.. which I would expect him too, of course! Dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='dood' post='143019' date='Feb 19 2008, 01:01 PM']Hmmm.. yeah, this gets discussed a lot, but I would really love to here from some of the big [b]manufatcurers[/b] to hear about not just the financial and manufacturing implications, but their take on the design itself. I have spoken at length with one of the head tech guys at Eminence. He was really helpful and had some interesting views on cab design.. which I would expect him too, of course! Dan.[/quote] I think I just invented a new word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Been meaning to start a topic on this but might as well stick it here. In the world of pro sound direct radiatiors (driver in a box, sealed or ported, with the driver pointing directly out) went out years ago but most small PA's are still direct radiators like the ubiquitous Mackie and Peavey, some of which are man enough to take the whole band miked up/DI'd. Pro sound went to having big horn loaded cabs with compression drivers etc, with seperate bass/mid/top cabs but more recently has gone more for having lots of full range cabs (called arrays) but still largely horn loaded. The only bass cabs made like this were the Ashdown ASS that despite being the signature cabs for the greatest bass player then extant they were not practical for most gigging musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bass_ferret' post='143031' date='Feb 19 2008, 01:21 PM']Been meaning to start a topic on this but might as well stick it here. In the world of pro sound direct [b]radiatiors [/b](driver in a box, sealed or ported, with the driver pointing directly out) went out years ago but most small PA's are still direct radiators like the ubiquitous Mackie and Peavey, some of which are man enough to take the whole band miked up/DI'd. Pro sound went to having big horn loaded cabs with compression drivers etc, with seperate bass/mid/top cabs but more recently has gone more for having lots of full range cabs (called arrays) but still largely horn loaded. The only bass cabs made like this were the Ashdown ASS that despite being the signature cabs for the greatest bass player then extant they were not practical for most gigging musicians.[/quote] Me too. Edited February 19, 2008 by bass_ferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 If you want something small and loud you have to give up bottom, whether you horn load it or not. I don't believe full horn loading works for bass rigs because the minimum mouth size predicates far too large a rig for 99% of bassists - though for PA use I think horn loaded subs are a far better choice than direct radiators, Bill's Titan 48 with 3015LF being a prime example. Two of these v-coupled and corner loaded are capable of prodigious low frequency output. Schroeder's small cabs - the 1210 and 1212 - which squeeze the speakers into a totally undersized box results in a very loud cab due to the high-bass hump and lack of bottom and the resulting back pressure on the speakers reduces cone excursion to the point that you can hit them with massive power without risk of over-excursion. This same back pressure is the reason these cabs produce practically no bottom because the speakers hardly move when low frequency signal is applied. Furthermore midrange sounds louder and takes less power to produce than lows - EQ your bass like that and note how much louder you sound. The question for each bassist to consider is how much am I willing to give up my lows to get a small yet loud rig? My response is that I'm not terribly willing, I'd rather we played more quietly, it makes everything sound better anyway! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bass_ferret' post='143009' date='Feb 19 2008, 07:43 AM']Most efficient is going to be horn loaded cabs like Bill Fitzmaurice. Shame no bass cab manufacturer does anything similar and I cant help but wonder why.[/quote] The labor cost for a horn loaded cab is three to ten times that of a direct radiator. BTW, horn loaded cabs aren't necessarily any larger than direct radiators with equal capabilities, and in many cases are actually smaller. A horn loaded 1x10 can equal or better the performance of a direct radiating 4x10 of similar size. But the horn loaded ten might entail $500 labor cost to build, while that of the direct radiator is only $50. With the cost to the manufacturer of ten inch OEM drivers about $40 each the far more profitable route is the direct radiator. Edited February 19, 2008 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='143058' date='Feb 19 2008, 02:00 PM']The labor cost for a horn loaded cab is three to ten times that of a direct radiator. BTW, horn loaded cabs aren't necessarily any larger than direct radiators with equal capabilities, and in many cases are actually smaller. A horn loaded 1x10 can equal or better the performance of a direct radiating 4x10 of similar size. But the horn loaded ten might entail $500 labor cost to build, while that of the direct radiator is only $50. With the cost to the manufacturer of ten inch OEM drivers about $40 each the far more profitable route is the direct radiator.[/quote] Wouldn't that become less of an issue if moulded cabs were used rather than wooden ones? Are there any implications of the horn-loaded design that would preclude using moulded cabs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='143044' date='Feb 19 2008, 01:40 PM']The question for each bassist to consider is how much am I willing to give up my lows to get a small yet loud rig? My response is that I'm not terribly willing, I'd rather we played more quietly, it makes everything sound better anyway![/quote] I couldn't agree more Alex, at the end of the day it's about sound and tone, and I'd rather sound good for a whole gig and go through 5 mins of dicomfort loading and unloading equipment. That said as Bill points out Horn loading means you need less speakers, therefore save a lot of weight, so it's really just a size issue - and having a big amp is cool [quote name='tauzero' post='143106' date='Feb 19 2008, 03:15 PM']Wouldn't that become less of an issue if moulded cabs were used rather than wooden ones? Are there any implications of the horn-loaded design that would preclude using moulded cabs?[/quote] hmm interesting point, I was wondering why cabs are wooden, does it have sound benfits, surely you could make moulded fibre glass cabs (many cars have them) at a fraction of the weight and as Tauzero points out could well reduce manufacture costs in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='woolleydick' post='142983' date='Feb 19 2008, 12:17 PM']I know this is but one aspect of cabinet performance, but who do you think makes the most efficient cabinets? I need something small light and loud - yes so does everyone else![/quote] I was reading a book on cab design the other day and the author points out that in direct radiators many speakers are only working at 1% efficency, by horn loading you can get that up to 80% efficency, but you'd need a 70 foot long horn ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='gilmour' post='143119' date='Feb 19 2008, 03:32 PM']hmm interesting point, I was wondering why cabs are wooden, does it have sound benfits, surely you could make moulded fibre glass cabs (many cars have them) at a fraction of the weight and as Tauzero points out could well reduce manufacture costs in the long run.[/quote] I was actually thinking of the ABS cabs that Mackie and Peavey (two name just two off the top of my head) use for PA gear. Possibly more resilient than wood and lighter weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clauster Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Weren't the Trace Elliot BLX range horn loaded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='tauzero' post='143106' date='Feb 19 2008, 03:15 PM']Wouldn't that become less of an issue if moulded cabs were used rather than wooden ones? Are there any implications of the horn-loaded design that would preclude using moulded cabs?[/quote] Cost - the quantities of bass gear is far too small to benefit from this kind of mass production and thus this would be way more expensive than plywood construction. [quote name='gilmour' post='143119' date='Feb 19 2008, 03:32 PM']hmm interesting point, I was wondering why cabs are wooden, does it have sound benfits, surely you could make moulded fibre glass cabs (many cars have them) at a fraction of the weight and as Tauzero points out could well reduce manufacture costs in the long run.[/quote] Also plywood cabs are much stiffer and less resonant than plastic cabs - note that although cheap PA cabs may be made of plastic, none of the high end ones are, nor are any decent subs. [quote name='gilmour' post='143119' date='Feb 19 2008, 03:32 PM']That said as Bill points out Horn loading means you need less speakers, therefore save a lot of weight, so it's really just a size issue - and having a big amp is cool [/quote] But you need to bear in mind that the Omni 15 isn't a fully horn-loaded cab - although the 15" is in a short horn which increases lower midrange output in the bass frequencies it is a very large bass reflex cab with a slightly mass loaded woofer. If it was a true horn sub then it would need to be noticeably larger to get the same sensitivity in the critical 50-100Hz region, as can been seen by comparing the Omni 15 plots with the various Titans. Once you get into the midrange then you're using the horns to get more output from a given speaker but it would be cheaper for a manufacturer to use a more sensitive and/or higher power handling speaker(s) in a direct radiator than build a horn. [quote name='gilmour' post='143119' date='Feb 19 2008, 03:32 PM']I couldn't agree more Alex, at the end of the day it's about sound and tone, and I'd rather sound good for a whole gig and go through 5 mins of dicomfort loading and unloading equipment.[/quote] I concur. Anyway it isn't discomfort, it's exercise! Alex Edited February 19, 2008 by alexclaber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='tauzero' post='143106' date='Feb 19 2008, 10:15 AM']Are there any implications of the horn-loaded design that would preclude using moulded cabs?[/quote]Only the $250k cost of the molds. You have to sell a lot of cabs to amortize that, which is why you see cheap PA cabs that are sold by the boatload built that way, but not high end cabs that have yearly production runs at best in the thousands, if not hundreds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='143190' date='Feb 19 2008, 04:55 PM']I concur. Anyway it isn't discomfort, it's exercise! Alex[/quote] Hehe being a musician isn't about theory, technique and talent, it's about carrying heavy balck boxes to and from horrendously ubnderpowered hatchbacks I understand that the O15 isn't fully horn loaded, but even that small amount makes a noticeable difference. I think If it was it would be so big I'd have to consider a new car ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='143386' date='Feb 19 2008, 09:20 PM']Only the $250k cost of the molds. You have to sell a lot of cabs to amortize that, which is why you see cheap PA cabs that are sold by the boatload built that way, but not high end cabs that have yearly production runs at best in the thousands, if not hundreds.[/quote] plus most of the 'plastic' cabs that are out there sound absolutely horrendous compared to the wooden counterparts...... maybe with the exception of some EV product... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 [quote name='clauster' post='143178' date='Feb 19 2008, 04:36 PM']Weren't the Trace Elliot BLX range horn loaded?[/quote] Not exactly! They had two slotted ports in a baffle in front of the (single) 12"(?) Driver. More like a very short back-to-front transmission line enclosure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 [quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='143551' date='Feb 20 2008, 09:43 AM']Not exactly! They had two slotted ports in a baffle in front of the (single) 12"(?) Driver. More like a very short back-to-front transmission line enclosure...[/quote] Actually I think it's a dual reflex bandpass, assuming the horizontal slot port is loading the rear of the driver and the vertical slot point the front. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clauster Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Thanks guys, now I know. I think I'd better start bringing my speaker physics upto the same standard as my electronics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 [quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='143551' date='Feb 20 2008, 04:43 AM']Not exactly! They had two slotted ports in a baffle in front of the (single) 12"(?) Driver. More like a very short back-to-front transmission line enclosure...[/quote] A transmission line is a quarter-wave device, so anything less than three feet or so is more likely a reflex duct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='143658' date='Feb 20 2008, 01:23 PM']A transmission line is a quarter-wave device, so anything less than three feet or so is more likely a reflex duct.[/quote] I assume this method works similar to a tuned port? (ie attenuating upper frequencies, so that the bass sounds more prominent?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 [quote name='dood' post='143663' date='Feb 20 2008, 01:28 PM']I assume this method works similar to a tuned port? (ie attenuating upper frequencies, so that the bass sounds more prominent?)[/quote] I think what's happening with the BLX is the rear loaded (conventional) vent is providing a resonant boost in the usual way at the bottom end of the frequency response but then the front loaded vent is providing another resonant boost in the midbass region, increasing sensitivity. Heaven knows what happens to the midrange - at least the slot port is vertical so the midrange that does reach it will defract in the right direction but there must be all manner of reinforcements and cancellations as sound waves bounce rounnd the front chamber. Transmission lines are a different thing altogether - [url="http://www.quarter-wave.com/"]http://www.quarter-wave.com/[/url] They're not hugely dissimilar to ports in that they use the back wave off a speaker to create a resonance that reinforces the front wave, however instead of being a helmholtz resonator they work more like an organ pipe. This means that in addition to the fundamental resonant frequency you get all the overtones which need to be damped by stuffing the pipe (which has the bonus of increasing the effective length of the pipe and therefore reducing the required size). EA's info on them is quite useful though a bit salesy - [url="http://www.eaamps.com/2005/technology/transmission_line.htm"]http://www.eaamps.com/2005/technology/transmission_line.htm[/url] Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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