Buying a Bass Rig

[GStar]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, been looking round and it seems a lot of people really know they're stuff on here!

I'm after some help with buying a my first bass rig.

I've been recommended to take a look at Peavey and that seems to have been reaffirmed on a few threads on here, i'm struggling though with Ohm's, impendance etc


Ive been looking at:

1.
Peavey 210TVX - 175 Watts RMS continuous @ 4 Ohms - with
Peavey 410 TVX EX either:
4Ohm 350 Watts continuous, 700 Watts program
8Ohm 350 Watts continuous, 700 Watts program
With a Peavey Tour 450 Bass Head 450 watts into 4 ohms (4 ohm minimum load)
Total: £630-ish

2.
Warwick WCA 611 Pro 900 watts RMS Impedance: 8 ohms
with a Warwick ProFet 3.2 300W 4Ohms
Total: £520

I'll be using it for rehersals and gigs in pubs and music venues or various sizes, what i need to know is:

Am i looking at the right kind of cabs? (Wattage etc - Too powerful, not powerful enough)

When looking at the Ohm rating of a head do i want to match that to the Ohm rating on the Cab? What if i want to stack two, does that change the Ohm rating of the bass head i require?

Lastly are there any suggestions anyone has for possible rigs/stacks/cabs; whatever name you want to use that i should be looking at?

I apologise if this seems like a really stupid, ignorant post but i really don't know where to start on this topic, hopefully i've given enough information to be of use.

Thanks in advance for any help!

-Chris

[Machines]

I don't think that the Profet 3.2 will be able to drive that 610 properly - especially if its 900w RMS rated on the cab. The Profet could easily damage the cab if you were overloading it despite the higher handling of the cab. I personally would be looking at around a 300-500w head and for ease of portability - 2 separate cabs. Be it a 410 + 115 etc..

1 x 8ohm cab = 8ohms. 2 x 8 ohm cab = 4ohms.

1 x 4ohm cab = 4 ohms, 2 x 4ohm cab = 2ohms. Make sense ? It took a little while for me to understand it..

As regards to what brand to go for - what music do you play and what bass do you have ?

[GStar]

Hi,

I use a Fender Jazz and mainly play rock, pop punk, funk and blues occasionally but i do like a bit of a slap, and as our drummer always says; "I do have a tendency to 'Funk things up'!

Thanks for the information on Ohms - that really helps. I was under the impression that if the head was of a lower wattage than the cab then it would be ok? Obviously not!

Does a 4x10 and a 1X15 work well? Ive read quite a few posts on here who seem to believe that a group of 10" speakers seem to be more punchy and even give better lows than single, larger cabs? Is that just something down to personel preference or can a 1x15 give you extra dimension/depth/presence on stage?

Sorry again for the inquesition!

[clauster]

+1 to Machines' advice.

Gstar, are you sure that 611 is 8ohm? According to the Warwick site the 611 is 4ohm. It will work better with the profet5.1, but really wants one of the big xtreme or tubepath heads.

If you like the Warwick tone I'd recommend the profet 5.1 with the 411pro 8ohm - you'll get the same sort of power as you would with 3.2 into a 4ohm cab and you've got the facility to add another 8ohm cab later to release the full 500 watts (if you really need to).

[GStar]

[quote name='clauster' post='110451' date='Dec 29 2007, 08:47 AM']+1 to Machines' advice.

Gstar, are you sure that 611 is 8ohm? According to the Warwick site the 611 is 4ohm. It will work better with the profet5.1, but really wants one of the big xtreme or tubepath heads.

If you like the Warwick tone I'd recommend the profet 5.1 with the 411pro 8ohm - you'll get the same sort of power as you would with 3.2 into a 4ohm cab and you've got the facility to add another 8ohm cab later to release the full 500 watts (if you really need to).[/quote]

Hi clauster, yes, looking again you are right about the 611 being 4Ohm; i'm not really sure what i should be looking at; i'm wanting something thats gives me enough power to be used on stage but i also realise that this is my first rig so i'm not going to be spending the cash to get an Ampeg 8x10 with a head alone costing over £1,000

Do you have any opinions on what i should be looking at; Brand, setup, wattage etc.

I've been looking at: Peavey, Warwick, Ashdown, Hartke but i'm not sure what will best suit my needs.


Thanks for taking your time to help me out here

[Chopthebass]

Hi,
I would suggest giving Hartke a look. My very very first bass amp was a Peavey combo, but at only 100w I soon grew out of it. I moved up to Trace Elliot, but soon changed after hearing Hartke. Their 3500 head is extremely potent and will keep up with a gigging rock band. I would recommend their 4.5xl (4 x 10) and 115xl (1 x 15) cabs. Check thomann website as their prices for Hartke are pretty keen.

Good luck!

Ian

[GStar]

[quote name='Chopthebass' post='110462' date='Dec 29 2007, 09:33 AM']Hi,
I would suggest giving Hartke a look. My very very first bass amp was a Peavey combo, but at only 100w I soon grew out of it. I moved up to Trace Elliot, but soon changed after hearing Hartke. Their 3500 head is extremely potent and will keep up with a gigging rock band. I would recommend their 4.5xl (4 x 10) and 115xl (1 x 15) cabs. Check thomann website as their prices for Hartke are pretty keen.

Good luck!

Ian[/quote]

Hey thanks man, ive seem some good things said about the 4.5 and the 3500 on here... The advice was so good it was posted twice!

[bass_ferret]

Try all the options and buy the one you like the sound of best. Not easy if buying blind on the web mind. Cant see the point of getting a 2x10 and a 4x10 - just get 2x2x10s.

[clauster]

I'd say you're looking at all the right brands, but they all sound very different from each other - try and try some out. Have you got any good music shops near you?

[GStar]

Thanks bass_ferret - does a 115 add anything to a 210 or a 410? There seems to be conflicting views on here to the use one brings to a bass stack?

I'll be back in manchester after Christmas clauster, i'll go have a search; there's bound to be some decent music shops about!


Again a really dumb question, but what kind of different sounds will i get from different brands... Surely if i wanted a deeper/warmer tone i'd boost the low end of the EQ, and conversely id i wanted a more slap/pop sound i'd excentuate the mid/high frequencies?

As i've said i've never really had to 'do' anything when playing live or in rehersals ive normally had someone with a lot more experience than me set me up, or ive just fiddled around until i find something that sounds half decent; i'm starting to realise what the right equipment can do for your overall sound and performance though.

[clauster]

[quote]Again a really dumb question, but what kind of different sounds will i get from different brands... Surely if i wanted a deeper/warmer tone i'd boost the low end of the EQ, and conversely id i wanted a more slap/pop sound i'd excentuate the mid/high frequencies?[/quote]

Not a dumb question at all - but each manufacturer has a "signature" tone (a bit like basses really)

Ashdown seem to be a love it or hate it sound Some people describe it as vintage rock.

Warwick - modern rock - quite bright but with a bit of growl too, accentuates the tone of their basses.

Hartke - as its got both SS and valve preamps its perhaps the most flexible, heard it described as the poor man's Ampeg!

Using the eq (and different cabs) will let you tune the tone to your taste, but an Ashdown is never going to sound like GK.

[The Funk]

I'd recommend getting a pair of Hartke 2x10s and either a Warwick or Gallien-Krueger head.

[url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/profet-32/9218"]Warwick Profet 3.2[/url] (£185 - GAK)
[url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/210-tp/69241"]Hartke 210TP[/url] x2 (£175 each - GAK)

£535 total - if you haggle I'm sure they'd bring it down to a round 500.

I think Fender Jazzes sound pretty good through most amps though. If your budget extends a bit further I'd recommend a pair of Hartke 2.5XL cabs (stack them vertically) and maybe the Gallien-Krueger 400RB or 700RB. The 700RB would probably be a better match for the 2.5XLs power-wise, although there shouldn't be any difference in tone.

[stingrayfan]

If you're only doing covers in pubs or small venues, a 4x10 will prob be more than enough. Plus you'll look a bit daft wheeling in a huge cab into a small pub! The Warwick stuff's good for the money and will do the trick but it's not the loudest stuff you'll ever use (and the heads are pretty heavy). MarkBass or Trace Elliot stuff is louder (but also more expensive). Amps and cabs are huge heavy things, so it really pays to check them out in the flesh before you part with your hard earned.

Another plus for the Warwick is that you can order the cabs as 4-ohm, making them work a bit louder.

Hope that helps. PM me for any more info on what the Warwick stuff's like.

PS. Where in the country are you? There might be someone on here near you who would let you try out their set-up

Edited December 29, 2007 by stingrayfan

[GStar]

I gotta say im surprised and very grateful at the amount of advice everyone has given so quickly!

I'm based in Manchester City Centre, occasionaly go back home (Barrow-in-Furness; Cumbria) wont be doing many, if any covers and our first gig is in a few weeks at The Roadhouse (purely a music venue; people pay to come watch live bands, not a pub - our drummer got a bit carried away in booking it but im looking forward to it) holds arounds 250 people i think so not too large but not a small pub gig either.

For the short term i can hire a head for the evening; but i want something thats mine which will cut down rehersal costs and allow me to play around and find my own sound.

Thanks again Clauster; ive seen a lot of Ashdown on t.v but the bands always seem to be miming; that and some people's opinions have stopped by buying a rig currently on eBay but i'll see if i can find find somewhere to check some different setups out.

Hi Funk, i'm not too sure at what prices i should be expecting; stuff like Mark Bass, Ampeg etc seem a little out of my price range unless something comes up on here of eBay. I'd love to get a fantastic Ampeg stack eventually as a lot of bassists i like seem to use them but right now i can't justify spending that amount

Thanks also Stringray, i'll take you up on that offer and PM you soon; ive got to catch a train to get back to Manchester for the Liverpool game tomorrow so time is tight, i'll keep checking back here though and ill have some free time over the New Year to get in touch.


Any more advice and opinions from anyone? I'm like a sponge at the moment!

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='GStar' post='110476' date='Dec 29 2007, 10:29 AM']Thanks bass_ferret - does a 115 add anything to a 210 or a 410? There seems to be conflicting views on here to the use one brings to a bass stack?[/quote]
I had a Peavey T-Max with 1x15/2x10 - I PX the 1x15 on another 2x10 cos it sounded better with 2x2x10 IMO. Best thing to do is try before you buy then you can hear the difference. If you can get the shop to spin a CD through a PA and play along to that as this will give you a better idea of real world sound.

[The Funk]

I prefer two 2x10s to a single 4x10 for two reasons: height and portability. The downside is cost as a single 4x10 is usually cheaper than a pair of the equivalent 2x10s. The reason I prefer head/cabs over combos is again portability.

I think as it's your first rig you should set yourself an upper limit. Your first rig probably won't turn out to be exactly what you're after so resale value at upgrade time should also be taken into account. A secondhand rig is not a bad idea, especially as everyone on here suffers from serious G.A.S. and a lot of great deals can be found in the For Sale forums.

You can obviously get more bang from your buck buying secondhand and your rig would probably depreciate in value much less.

I recommended Gallien-Krueger, Warwick and Hartke stuff as they all have a clean punch and growl to them, and if you play rock, funk, punk and blues, that's probably the kind of thing you're after. Their pricing is also mid-level and cheaper than the stuff you can't afford, ie. Ampeg, Markbass, Eden, Aguilar, Epifani etc.

[Kiwi]

I first listened to my Trace V8 400w through Tonyf's Warwick 611 and it sounded fine. If the cab is fairly sensitive (ie >100dB) you should be able to use it with a lower powered head with fairly satisfactory results. Why not drop Tony a PM and ask him about the heads he's used with his?

Always try before you buy though.

[wateroftyne]

Just to add to the advice above...

In my experience, buying gear based on how it sounds in the shop is pointless. The two environments are apples and oranges.

The only way you can be sure is to gig it, which is obviously a bit tricky....

[The Funk]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='111308' date='Dec 31 2007, 08:38 AM']The only way you can be sure is to gig it, which is obviously a bit tricky....[/quote]

That's true. I always used to check out bassists' rigs at gigs to see what they were using, especially when I really liked the bass tone.

That's when I became a fan of Hartke cabs.

After I got a pair of Hartke cabs and took them out to gigs, I realised I had a low end problem. I love a mid-bump but every single part of my signal chain had a mid-bump in it - and there's a bit of low-mid naturally missing from my bass - so I had to adjust and get cabs that took care of my low end problem.

So I suppose that's another thing to consider - different bits of equipment might sound great individually but not quite click together.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Machines' post='110447' date='Dec 29 2007, 07:18 AM']I don't think that the Profet 3.2 will be able to drive that 610 properly - especially if its 900w RMS rated on the cab. The Profet could easily damage the cab if you were overloading it despite the higher handling of the cab.[/quote]

Nope - two reasons why: Underpowering remains a myth. More speakers require less power than fewer speakers.

Alex

[clauster]

+1 On Peavey being heavy. I used to live in Manchester and had a TNT combo. After gigs I could leave it on the pavement and no one would try and nick it.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='BeLow' post='111348' date='Dec 31 2007, 10:40 AM']Buying a rig is tricky - many of us have gone through more rigs than we would care to think about trying to get it right.

From my personal experience which is not necessarily the most comprehensive :-

Hartke I have found to be a little harsh, although this was using their cheaper paper coned speakers and I have limited experience of them. Generally they seem to do the business in terms of volume and gig worthiness, and a lot of people them use them as a stepping stone to their ultimate rig.

Peavey is not a range I have tried much, I have heard some very nice sounding rigs. They have a reputation for reliability and being heavy. They tend to use slightly different minimum impedances - some going down to 2 ohms.

Trace elliot up to about the series 6 range were very tough, they tended to be pretty bassy and scooped in sound - the power rating always seemed to be quite conservative compared to other manufacturers - have not tried the new stuff but apparently the bigger more sophisticated versions sound good (if you can afford them).

Ashdown have a 'warm' or 'mushy' tone depending on your personal tastes, they appear to attract varying views from fierce loyalty to dismissive criticism. Personally I had a MAG 210 300 watt combo which was cheap, but probably not too efficient and tended to get lost in the mix of a live band, having said that I did try out an ABM rig a while back and it sounded rather nice. I think generally people move on from the MAG range when they can afford it.

I have a Markbass little Mark2 head, which is 500 watts, light and efficient. The sound reminds me slightly of trace elliot although it is not quite as dated - occasionally it is criticised for lacking in top end warmth. I use this with an Ashdown styled 4x8 and a home built 1x15. I have just started using a self built BFM designed Omni 10.5 cab. The Omni is a single 10" speaker which is light and efficient. the combination of this with the larger 15" speakers gives clarity with a big slab of warm bass. This works well but if you play a lot of longer multi note slap fills it can sound a little mushy, but I do like the solidity of the bass response I get with it.

Just to make things worse for you, as some one has mentioned the best sound in the shop environment can be misleading. When playing solo we often favour the classic boost of bass and treble and cut mids, while this can be a great sound for slap in the shop, if you are in a large guitar band you may find you have to be very loud to cut through in the mix. Alternatively you can boost the mids to improve how you cut through - but this does not sound as pleasing when you listen to it on its own.

Again I woud re-emphasise the difference between what looks good and sounds impressive and what the working bass player uses made by others. Although some do use 8x10 cabs they are pretty dedicated and / or have helpful band mates, as they are tricky to move about. They are for most bass players slight overkill - although they do look great on stage. Even an 4x10 can be a handful, a sad reality is that you may start looking at sack barrows and estate cars longingly rather than sexy bass cabs.[/quote]
Lovely bit of unbiased insight there, thanks! I've been taking notes.

[Machines]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='111343' date='Dec 31 2007, 10:27 AM']Nope - two reasons why: Underpowering remains a myth. More speakers require less power than fewer speakers.

Alex[/quote]

So can I use a 15w head with an 810 cab ?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Machines' post='111559' date='Dec 31 2007, 05:04 PM']So can I use a 15w head with an 810 cab ?[/quote]

Yes. And it'll go a damn sight louder than into the usual 1x8" 15W combo and will be as loud as a 150W 1x10" combo. And it will be completely impossible to blow the speakers.

Alex

[Gazm]

[quote name='Machines' post='111559' date='Dec 31 2007, 05:04 PM']So can I use a 15w head with an 810 cab ?[/quote]

Of course! It just won't sound as loud as with a 1kW amp.
Assuming the cab isn't mismatched impedance-wise to the amp.