theosd Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 (edited) Why is it that they always struggle to get my bass to shine through in the mix, despite my using top quality equipment?? Is it the 'Law of Soundmen' that dictates that they are often hopeless at their job? Edited December 31, 2007 by theosd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umph Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 people seem to just dislike letting bass cut through in a mix :/ i hate it when there isn't even any bass in the moniters and it goes to a bit with solo bass and you stop to check to see if you forgot to actually turn your amp on or something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashevans09 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 (edited) [quote name='umph' post='111267' date='Dec 31 2007, 01:39 AM']people seem to just dislike letting bass cut through in a mix :/[/quote] Yes! It's damn annoying - I used to barely be able to hear myself and I'd get similar comments from people there...so now I get my bassist friend to run sound Good thing he's the techy type Edited December 31, 2007 by ashevans09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davetbass Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 [quote name='ashevans09' post='111272' date='Dec 31 2007, 01:53 AM']Yes! It's damn annoying - I used to barely be able to hear myself and I'd get similar comments from people there...so now I get my bassist friend to run sound Good thing he's the techy type [/quote] Buy them a pint!! Works for me everytime!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJW Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 95% of the bands I do sound for have terrible bass sounds/bassists, so it isn't really beneficial to have it LOUD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I think there are a few problems with sound: 1. Communication: if you can't explain to the soundman why you're not happy with the sound, you can't expect him to understand what type of sound you're after. 2. PA Equipment: PAs work best when as few different instruments are going into them as possible. In a lot of small - medium sized clubs, there's no need to send the drums, guitar or bass through the PA, just vocals and keyboards. And standard monitors are not designed to reproduce bass frequencies well. If you have an amp, use it. The reason a lot of soundmen like to run everything through the PA is so they can control and balance the levels of the different instruments. But what's the point if everything comes out as sludge? If you can communicate well with the soundman, then you might be able to take your bass out of the PA. 3. Soundcheck: I've had many soundchecks where through a painful process we've eventually ended up with a sound we're happy with. So we go off and have a listen to the support bands. We come back on to do our set and lo and behold, the soundman is drunk and hasn't made a record of any of the settings. So what was the point in us coming to the venue 9 hours before our set and going through a soundcheck at all? I think it normally boils down to communication, expecting more of a PA that it can do well and occasionally, incompetence on the part of either the bassist or soundman - or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Is he taking a line out of your amp, or straight from the bass? If it's the former, is it post-DI? Do you have an wacky EQ going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clauster Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Get your own soundman, drag him along to rehearsals, make him part of the band. He'll know the bands sound and be better able to reproduce it live. He'll also be part of the band and have a vested interest in making you sound as good as possible. If you're using the venue's sound guy, his priorities are going to be the venues priorities - make the sound so that people will have a dance and a sing without shaking the glasses off tables (which is what loud bass frequencies will do). You could also educate yourself (I've been a sound engineer in the past) - you'll get a better response if you can say "please can you cut my signal above 7k and boost around 3k" rather than "I wanna be louder". I had plenty of muso's say the second to me - you turn them up and thirty seconds you side back down again - after all everyone in the band always wants to be louder (he'll view you like we view guitarists ) . The first approach means the soundman'll think you know what you're talking about and take you more seriously - one of my first gigs on a desk was with a solo artist - a girl who played bass and sang (she was AMAZING, I mean jaw droppingly talented) - at the soundcheck she asked "have you got about 3db boost at around 10k?" f**k me I did (EXACTLY 3db @10k), after that I just made every adjustment she wanted. Lastly, how do you know you're not cutting through the mix? A mix at sound check that has very little bass in it will be a lot more bassy once the venue is full of punters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I've had good experiences with sound men this year. I played in an acoustic duo and bands at the Brecon jazz festival, Ealing blues festival, Gillingham, Farnham Maltings festivals and at a couple of other venues including the 100 club and Barfly, and got good sounds at all of them. My view is: - Be professional. I think that if you present yourself in an unprofessional manner the sound man won't bother either. - Say hello to the sound man. Ask about his gear and the venue. If he knows you appreciate him he'll do a better job. - Tell him what you do and what you want. Clarity is needed here. - Be pleasant about getting what you need. Insist, but nicely. - At the end of the day, you have to trust him. - Say thanks and shake is hand afterwards. Why not. If it was a good gig I shake hands with the rest of the band and say thanks. - Shut up and don't get in the way. This isn't rehearsal or widdle time. This seems to work for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay249 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 If you play in a covers/pub/etc band, I can guarantee you that sadly, a soundman doesn't have all night to make sure the bass has perfect 'bass player' level of presence, put yourself in their position, anything from 0 to what? 400 punters who cant hear the vocals. It's very rarely any punters come over to me and complain that they cant hear the top end on the bass guitar. You can of course make a complete fool of yourself and turn up with a 2k basson or ampeg or something, rig, and be a twat, then you won't get put through the pa at all because you're so loud, louder than everything, and a bad bass player! I personally as a bass player just take my EBS 12 and point it at my face for monitoring, and the fact i can feel myself rumbling around the room is comfort enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 That's another problem I've had: some of the venues we've played are used to indie bands where the bass just gives a very simple low rumble out of time and out of tune. In a funk band, the bass is the most important instrument after the vocals. You can't engineer it exactly the same way as you would an indie kid who's been playing two weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay249 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Any good engineer would notice that, granted there are some fools out there but every good engineer I know, regardless of if theyre a musician, would see that a mile off. I will also add that anyone who uses a mid scoop and then complains about lack of presence in a live mix should be penalized and made to go to a 3 hour mid scoop workshop which touches upon the human and commercial losses that result from mid scooping, or three points on their mid scooping smiley face eq licence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theosd Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 Well I'm in a three piece, and the bass still seems to get lost at this one venue we play frequently (it's partly the venue's fault for having an outdated PA and poor acoustics), but it's mostly down to their resident soundman who is purely awful. He says things like "you need more in the 50hz region" and expects me to do something about it; it's your job mate!! He's probably getting paid more than the band at these things to, which to me is the most annoying factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 [quote name='theosd' post='111392' date='Dec 31 2007, 11:36 AM']Well I'm in a three piece, and the bass still seems to get lost at this one venue we play frequently (it's partly the venue's fault for having an outdated PA and poor acoustics), but it's mostly down to their resident soundman who is purely awful. He says things like "you need more in the 50hz region" and expects me to do something about it; it's your job mate!! He's probably getting paid more than the band at these things to, which to me is the most annoying factor.[/quote] Yes, but... playing devil's advocate... if whatever he needs is missing from your tone in the first place, he can't put it back in very easily. Of course, it may be that he's useless. I dunno. I never really have a problem with this stuff. Whenever I've heard a recording from out front it always sounds OK to me. Maybe my tone is simpler than others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappygarry Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 You clearly don't work with good sound guys. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay249 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 (edited) Yeah that's an example of someone who shouldn't be given a job, I have a massive problem with people who are 'too good' for the younger bands, I'm only 20 now and I've been gigging about 5 years in all your token local venues, I've had famous things said like ''you wanna get that bass looked at mate I couldn't get a good sound out of it'' in a un-named Bristol venue that I'm not going to name, and this bloke's talking about my 78 jazz bass directly interjectulamated straight into his mixing desk, that was a good joke, I just laughed at him and left. I just thought, I should have said ''Haha well no [b]good[/b] engineer's ever had that problem! Edited December 31, 2007 by Crazykiwi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theosd Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='111395' date='Dec 31 2007, 11:39 AM']Yes, but... playing devil's advocate... if whatever he needs is missing from your tone in the first place, he can't put it back in very easily. Of course, it may be that he's useless. I dunno. I never really have a problem with this stuff. Whenever I've heard a recording from out front it always sounds OK to me. Maybe my tone is simpler than others?[/quote] My tone is always good on stage; it's what comes through the PA that sucks balls. Other soundmen can squeeze a good sound out of the system at this venue (the problem isn't tone, it's filling a long, echoey room). I mean, the last gig we played he said I wanted more of a "Pearl Jam" bass tone. Actually, no I don't. I want mine. Dick. There are certainly good soundmen who I've worked with, but a lot of them seem world-weary and are becoming recluses, leaving people with an NVQ or whatever the certificate is in sound engineering who know nothing about sound levels and room acoustics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I've just accepted that MOST sound men, not all obviously, haven't a clue as to what they're doing, so the FSOF gigs that we don't have our sound guy at i just concentrate on having a good stage sound so that I'm feeling the gig, thats what matters! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 [quote name='jay249' post='111381' date='Dec 31 2007, 11:24 AM']Any good engineer would notice that, granted there are some fools out there but every good engineer I know, regardless of if theyre a musician, would see that a mile off.[/quote] That's the problem: some venues hire engineers, others hire 'guys'. [quote name='jay249' post='111381' date='Dec 31 2007, 11:27 AM']I will also add that anyone who uses a mid scoop and then complains about lack of presence in a live mix should be penalized and made to go to a 3 hour mid scoop workshop which touches upon the human and commercial losses that result from mid scooping, or three points on their mid scooping smiley face eq licence![/quote] I agree. I've never understood mid-scooping. The mids are the best part of the sound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theosd Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 [quote name='The Funk' post='111405' date='Dec 31 2007, 11:47 AM']I agree. I've never understood mid-scooping. The mids are the best part of the sound![/quote] I agree with you. I mean, i use a stingray 5 which are renowned for their ability to cut through (due to the mid-biased voicing), and yet it sounded trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay249 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I've seen some EQ's in my 3 years crewing, I've seen some eq's. [quote name='theosd' post='111409' date='Dec 31 2007, 11:50 AM']I agree with you. I mean, i use a stingray 5 which are renowned for their ability to cut through (due to the mid-biased voicing), and yet it sounded trash.[/quote] Try running everything flat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clauster Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 OSD - if you've got good sound on stage, but not FOH I'm guessing you're monitoring from your amp (rather than wedges or IEMs) - that's not gonna help the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 (edited) My one experience as an engineer was a bit of an eye-opener. I could not believe how rude many musicians are. The "proper" engineer hadn't turned up and I was in the band soundchecking after the band on stage. I knew the frontman and engineer so I offered to get everything up and running to speed things along. The rest of his band were a bunch of cnuts and couldn't stop whinging. When the proper engineer turned up I apologised for messing with his settings - he told me I'd got it bang on. Part of the art of playing live is managing to put in a good performance when you can't hear the rest of your band, can barely hear yourself and can only hear cymbals. Edited December 31, 2007 by The Funk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay249 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 If you can do all of that, and also not cry the third time you ''play mustang sally'' and make people smile, you'll go far, haha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theosd Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 [quote name='jay249' post='111413' date='Dec 31 2007, 11:52 AM']Try running everything flat[/quote] I always do, at first, in any venue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.