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Impedance etc


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#1 bass_ferret

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 09:14 PM

[attachment=58:Infomation_O_1_.htm]

Edited by bass_ferret, 04 January 2009 - 09:03 PM.


#2 bfirsh

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 08:52 PM

http://wiki.basschat...nce_and_wattage
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#3 Kiwi

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:37 AM

http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb04/arti...k/impedence.htm

An excellent explanation - the best I've encountered on the web.
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#4 Beneath It All

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 05:36 PM

View Postbass_ferret, on May 17 2007, 10:14 PM, said:

...Interesting article although I never subscribed to the view that speakers should be able to handle more power than the amp can deliver....If,for example you're using an amp rated at 800 watts but only use 300 watts of that [plenty loud],then your 1000 watt speaker[s],aren't being driven efficiently and your amp has to work harder..Obviously, at the other extreme if you use a 100 watt head driven hard,then it may be advisable to use more than 100 watts of speaker capacity!...Maybe some tech head will tell me I'm wrong,although I've been doing this most of my life and arrived at these conclusions via trial and error...My general rule of thumb is 50% more speaker capacity than my ACTUAL PLAYING LEVEL....

#5 Beneath It All

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 05:39 PM

View Posthipbass, on Oct 4 2007, 06:36 PM, said:

...Interesting article although I never subscribed to the view that speakers should be able to handle more power than the amp can deliver....If,for example you're using an amp rated at 800 watts but only use 300 watts of that [plenty loud],then your 1000 watt speaker[s],aren't being driven efficiently and your amp has to work harder..Obviously, at the other extreme if you use a 100 watt head driven hard,then it may be advisable to use more than 100 watts of speaker capacity!...Maybe some tech head will tell me I'm wrong,although I've been doing this most of my life and arrived at these conclusions via trial and error...My general rule of thumb is 50% more speaker capacity than my ACTUAL PLAYING LEVEL....
**********************p.s. I 'aint blown a speaker since the 70's

#6 Biggsy

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 02:06 PM

I've naively never paid much attention to impedance, although haven't messed around with different cabs or heads yet. Figured it would be useful now I'm looking to upgrade, and reading through the article Crazykiwi posted it makes sense now; cheers for that.

Just so I'm sure I've got the right end of the stick;
I currently use a Hartke HA3500 heard with a Hartke 410TP cab.
The head is rated 350w @ 4 Ohms / 250w @ 8 Ohms.
The cab is rated 300w @ 8 ohms, so that means at the moment I'm only getting 250w, right?

The next thing I plan to upgrade is my cabs, and I want to try out the Eden XLT series.
If I get a 210XLT and a 115XLT (both rated 350w @ 8 Ohms) and use them in parrallell (one from each output on the head?) that would result in an impendance of 4 Ohms and full use of my current 350w?

*Edit: I now notice the 115XLT is 400w @ 8 ohm, which in my understanding would be fine in the above setup?

I really hope I'm at least close to the money on the maths with this, otherwise I fear I'll never understand!

Edited by Biggsy, 30 November 2007 - 02:18 PM.


#7 bremen

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 02:17 PM

View Posthipbass, on Oct 4 2007, 05:36 PM, said:

...Interesting article although I never subscribed to the view that speakers should be able to handle more power than the amp can deliver....If,for example you're using an amp rated at 800 watts but only use 300 watts of that [plenty loud],then your 1000 watt speaker[s],aren't being driven efficiently and your amp has to work harder..

no, that isn't the case. The speaker rating is simply how much power you can put into it before it shakes itself to bits and/or the glue melts in the voice coil. Tha amplifier doesn't care how close the speaker is to death.

On the other hand, a less efficient speaker needs more input power than an efficient one for a given sound pressure level, so that _will_ work the amplifier harder.

Quote

Obviously, at the other extreme if you use a 100 watt head driven hard,then it may be advisable to use more than 100 watts of speaker capacity!...

definitely!
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#8 bremen

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 02:18 PM

View PostBiggsy, on Nov 30 2007, 02:06 PM, said:

I've naively never paid much attention to impedance, although haven't messed around with different cabs or heads yet. Figured it would be useful now I'm looking to upgrade, and reading through the article Crazykiwi posted it makes sense now; cheers for that.

Just so I'm sure I've got the right end of the stick;
I currently use a Hartke HA3500 heard with a Hartke 410TP cab.
The head is rated 350w @ 4 Ohms / 250w @ 8 Ohms.
The cab is rated 300w @ 8 ohms, so that means at the moment I'm only getting 250w, right?

The next thing I plan to upgrade is my cabs, and I want to try out the Eden XLT series.
If I get a 210XLT and a 115XLT (both rated 350w @ 8 Ohms) and use them in parrallell (one from each output on the head?) that would result in an impendance of 4 Ohms and full use of my current 350w?

I really hope I'm at least close to the money on the maths with this, otherwise I fear I'll never understand!

Spot on.
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#9 thumb4bob

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 10:06 PM

thanks guys for posting this ive never thought about impedance at all before! About to change amp as well so its a good job I saw this

#10 JayX

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 01:49 PM

just a small query... I'm getting an amp that's 2ohm/4ohm switchable. both of my cabs are 8ohm so to use my amp I'm only going to be able to do it when I take both cabs out and run them in series to up the resistance to 4ohm. I'd rather sell one of the cabs and get a 4ohm cab so I can use it singularly.. but what about running a 4ohm and 8ohm cab in series? or parrallel?

#11 tauzero

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 01:55 PM

View PostJayX, on Jan 22 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

just a small query... I'm getting an amp that's 2ohm/4ohm switchable. both of my cabs are 8ohm so to use my amp I'm only going to be able to do it when I take both cabs out and run them in series to up the resistance to 4ohm. I'd rather sell one of the cabs and get a 4ohm cab so I can use it singularly.. but what about running a 4ohm and 8ohm cab in series? or parrallel?
First, you'd need to run them in parallel, not series, to get them to 4 ohms.

If you ran a 4 ohm and 8 ohm in parallel, the impedance would be 2.7 ohms, so I imagine you could do that with the amp switched to 2 ohm (not having dealt with switchable amps, I'm not sure how exactly you have to match the impedance, so check the manual).
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#12 BOD2

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 02:08 PM

View Posttauzero, on Jan 22 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

If you ran a 4 ohm and 8 ohm in parallel, the impedance would be 2.7 ohms, so I imagine you could do that with the amp switched to 2 ohm (not having dealt with switchable amps, I'm not sure how exactly you have to match the impedance, so check the manual).

It's generally not a good idea to use two cabs of different impedances (e.g. 4 ohm and 8 ohm). The power drawn by each cab is determined by the impedance of the cab, therefore using different impedances will result in different amounts of power going to each cab, which is probably not desirable. If you want to split the available amplifier power equally between two cabs then use cabs of the same impedance.

Two obtain a 2 ohm load from two cabs you would need two 4 ohm cabs in parallel.

Also check that the amplifier really is happy running into a two ohm load in "real-life" (this is still a little unusual, although quite feasible in high end emps) and that the 2 ohm load isn't just a false spec quoted by the manufacturer to make the amp sound more powerful than it is !
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#13 JayX

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 03:21 PM

Cheers for the feedback guys, its a Trace V6 and I've not heard of any problems running it in 2ohm mode. I was just hoping I'd get to keep my Trace 1x15 cab, but looks like I'm better off selling both my 8ohm cabs (Peavey 4x10 and Trace 1x15) and buying a single 4ohm cab like an Ampeg 4x10 out of it?

#14 nash

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 03:26 PM

yea ampeg 4x10 HLF would do you good with the tilt back design.
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#15 bass_ferret

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 08:05 PM

Trace V6. Is that all valve? Then it does matter as you can f*** the output transformer by using the wrong impedence.

#16 JayX

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 10:35 PM

Indeed it does, hence my question! Think I'll probably play it safe and get rid of both cabs at the same time then replace with a single as noted. Ta

#17 Hamster

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 06:26 PM

Here's a handy speaker impedance calculator I found on the web:- http://www.duncanamp.../impedance.html

Hours of fun :)

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#18 male33lancs

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 02:40 AM

View Posthipbass, on Oct 4 2007, 05:36 PM, said:

...Interesting article although I never subscribed to the view that speakers should be able to handle more power than the amp can deliver....If,for example you're using an amp rated at 800 watts but only use 300 watts of that [plenty loud],then your 1000 watt speaker[s],aren't being driven efficiently and your amp has to work harder..Obviously, at the other extreme if you use a 100 watt head driven hard,then it may be advisable to use more than 100 watts of speaker capacity!...Maybe some tech head will tell me I'm wrong,although I've been doing this most of my life and arrived at these conclusions via trial and error...My general rule of thumb is 50% more speaker capacity than my ACTUAL PLAYING LEVEL....

One industry extreme tech head suggests up to x 10 when using very distorted guitar tones... again this is to avoid distortion of voice coil...

none of us like to be pushed to our limits right? or not for extended periods night after night... ?

#19 bennifer

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 02:37 PM

View Postbremen, on Nov 30 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

no, that isn't the case. The speaker rating is simply how much power you can put into it before it shakes itself to bits and/or the glue melts in the voice coil. Tha amplifier doesn't care how close the speaker is to death.

On the other hand, a less efficient speaker needs more input power than an efficient one for a given sound pressure level, so that _will_ work the amplifier harder.



definitely!
True, but surely if you max out the amp, although the speaker can take it, the clipping thats going to occur from pushing an amp to its limit can damage the speaker. Certainly in Live sound PA terms ive always been recommended to run an amp way more powerful than the speaker - the amp can be run at a quarter or half capacity, so its not getting strained or anywhere near clipping, and the speaker, well you arent running that to the limit either so nothing breaks. Correct me if im wrong!

#20 Mr Cougar

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 12:00 PM

For years I ran a 300w head into a 350w max cab, the volume of the amp was never over c.60%, which I find is a good rule of tumb to avoid overdriving the amp. Now I know this doesn't equate to only 60% of the wattage going into the cab it has always seemed plenty of headroom.

I can't think I've ever turned the volume past 3'oclock on any amp (about 7, Nige)

Does anyone know how wattage output increases with turning up the volume, is it an exponential type increase?
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#21 bass_ferret

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 12:35 PM

View PostMr Cougar, on Jun 15 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

Does anyone know how wattage output increases with turning up the volume, is it an exponential type increase?
The numbers, markings etc on the volume control are totally meaningless - see here

Edited by bass_ferret, 15 June 2008 - 12:35 PM.


#22 Mr Cougar

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 09:18 PM

View Postbass_ferret, on Jun 15 2008, 01:35 PM, said:

The numbers, markings etc on the volume control are totally meaningless - see here

Question then: does the variable resistor that is the volume effect the amount of wattage which goes into the speakers? I read the article, it doesn't say anything about the numbers being meaningless, the volume is like a valve increasing or decreasing the amount it lets through to the power amp in terms of signal, so does it also change the watts that the actual amp sends into the cab or is the wattage being fed into the cab uniform regardless of the volume. 14 years playing and I've never thought about this in detail!
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#23 BOD2

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 08:33 AM

View PostMr Cougar, on Jun 16 2008, 10:18 PM, said:

Question then: does the variable resistor that is the volume effect the amount of wattage which goes into the speakers? I read the article, it doesn't say anything about the numbers being meaningless, the volume is like a valve increasing or decreasing the amount it lets through to the power amp in terms of signal, so does it also change the watts that the actual amp sends into the cab or is the wattage being fed into the cab uniform regardless of the volume. 14 years playing and I've never thought about this in detail!

Yes.

If there is no signal coming into the amp there will be no power being sent to the speakers (apart from a small amount of background noise which will consume some power).

If the "volume control" is passive and simply bleeds off some of the signal, then the remainder is sent to the amplifier sections and uses power to amplify it. The more signal sent the amplifier the more power it will use to amplify this signal.
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#24 alexclaber

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 09:40 AM

View PostMr Cougar, on Jun 16 2008, 10:18 PM, said:

is the wattage being fed into the cab uniform regardless of the volume.

When you play a loud note the wattage is high, when you play a quiet note the wattage is low, when you 'play' a rest the wattage is zero.

The gain and volume knobs simply act as a multiplier of the power your bass is putting into the amp. Therefore a heavy-handed player with a bass with hot pickups will put out much more power at the same volume knob settings as a lighter-touch player with a bass with quieter pickups.

And obviously even at full power the only time your amp is putting out full power is shortly after you strike the string, thereafter the note is decaying and the power is diminishing.

Alex

#25 bass_ferret

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 06:15 PM

An amplifier will only output its maximum wattage (measured in volts in the wiki article) irrespective of where the master volume is set. So if the signal is hotter in the preamp cos of input and tone settings then the maximum output is reached lower on the master volume than if the input and tone settings are lower. Once an amplifier is pushing out its maximum rated power (or hitting the limiter if there is one on the output stage - there often is) turning the volume up makes no difference.

#26 male33lancs

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 06:00 PM

Hi guys,

the way the volume control works depends on if the pot is linear or logarithmic (sorry bout spelling).... read up on many of sites....

with regard does altering volume affect wattage output, think about it? if you turn your volume up, does it get louder? the signal on the 'control' grid of an ouput valve controls how much power the output valve passes...

true, a valve amp can only reach a particular wattage, determined by the transformer set and valves used etc... however, a transistor amp does not limit itself the way a valve does and if lower and lower impedances are placed on the output than the recommended load of say 8 or 4 ohms, then the solid state device will tend to try and pass that current and damage the device or trip an overload device...

the idea of using a larger amp than the speaker rating and using speakers rated higher than the output of the amp are two very different issues it seems to me and are meant to attin different goals and perhaps not very well informed?

Perhaps the person who suggested using a higher output amp was suggesting this to gain higher spl's before the amp began to distort, as I can imagine may be a goal for some bass players... However, using speakers rated much lower than the amp would likely then cause the speakers to distort and possibly even suffer damage...

the idea of using much higher rated speakers I believe is more apt for the guitar, where distorted signal is often the goal and quite often a clipped signal (especially in modern times) and more heat makes it a good idea to over rate the speakers...

it also comes down to sonic goals... a small 20w speaker in a small amp driven to max may give the desired combination of preamp, power amp and speaker distortion for the particular goal, but conversely, a thrash metal maniac may prefer to rely on preamp distortion, a power amp with lots of head room and speakers that do not distort and mush up...

the sonic goals and technical and financial responsibliites/ goals are all different issues...

:)

#27 Mr Cougar

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 08:29 AM

I've never thought about this before (I don't use multiple cabs anyway) but when hooking up your speakers in parrallel how does the wattage work.

Lets say you had 2 x 4 ohm cabs giving you and impedance of 2 ohms running in parrallel (ie:just plugged 2 speakers into the back of the amp in a straightforward manner)

The amp is at say...750 @ 2 ohms

One cab is 350w

The other 600w

clearly you have enough headroom in total but presumably this would still be a bad idea since the 350w cab is effectively being driven with a max of 375w because the 750w from the amp has been divided equally, is this correct? or is there something I'm missing.

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#28 BOD2

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 10:17 AM

The amplifier does not "see" the power rating of a cab - it only "sees" the impedance. If both cabs are the same impedance it will split the output power equally between them.

Although on paper it looks like there might be a problem here (i.e. potentially 375W into a 350W cab) in practice this is unlikely to be a problem. It is most unlikely that you would ever extract the full power of 750W from the amp in such way as to damage anything.

As always, the most important advice is to listen. If you hear unplanned distortion, simply back off the power a little.
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#29 noisedude

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 06:26 PM

View PostBOD2, on Jul 8 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

The amplifier does not "see" the power rating of a cab - it only "sees" the impedance. If both cabs are the same impedance it will split the output power equally between them.

Although on paper it looks like there might be a problem here (i.e. potentially 375W into a 350W cab) in practice this is unlikely to be a problem. It is most unlikely that you would ever extract the full power of 750W from the amp in such way as to damage anything.

As always, the most important advice is to listen. If you hear unplanned distortion, simply back off the power a little.
Are you 100% on this? Not because I doubt it but because my question was very similar.

My amp is rated 300w RMS @ 4 ohms.

I am about to start using two cabs, as follows:

1. Rated 250w RMS @ 8 ohms
2. Rated 150w PEAK @ 8 ohms.

My understanding is then that I will be running at a combined 4 ohms, and that my 300w will be 'split' 50/50 between the cabs. Is that right?

This way, if I am running my amp flat out I will be getting an average of 150w to each cab, and peaks above that. However, I don't turn the master volume up beyond seven and keep the preamp gain fairly low (around half) to keep it clean on the way in.

Am I in trouble or is this a safe enough way to get some extra air moving as opposed to my previous setup of one 300w PEAK cab @ 8 ohms?

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#30 bass_ferret

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 12:05 AM

Alex Clabers first rule:
You can use any power ouput amp with any power handling cab. If any of these combinations makes bad sounds then turn down and/or stop cranking the bass EQ excessively or damage may occur





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