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What is it with guitarists and 12inch drivers and 4x12 cabs?


Marvin
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Nothing quite like a JTM45 through a 4 x 12 when you are in a venue big enough to allow the volume to be pushed within the 6 - 8 sweet spot - ahh, memories. When playing guitar I use 1 x 12 combo's (20 or 30 watt). The JTM is only about 35 watts, but through that greenback loaded 4 x 12 it was magic and very loud.

Funny, I use 12 inch speakers for bass too......

Edited by alanbass1
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I usually use my 1x12" Princeton Reverb copy for guitar gigs, but today I played through an old silverface Twin Reverb in a rehearsal room, and was enjoying the "big amp" sound even though I wasn't playing louder than usual. It'd be interesting to figure out why that was pleasing (given that the two are voiced similarly), though maybe it's a psychological thing.
I've never quite seen the point of a 4x12" cab these days - a guy I know drags a JTM45 and a 4x12" around but has to use a powerbrake all the time as it's ridiculously loud otherwise. If I were him, I'd probably have gone for a smaller, less efficient cab!

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[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1327260538' post='1508543']
I once read an interview with Allan Holdsworth who claimed he could tell the difference in sound between and angled and a straight Marshall 4 x 12.

I bet he's a riot to go for a pint with !!
[/quote]
:lol:

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An amp stand is an effective way to raise up a guitar amp and point it towards the guitarist's ears: [url="http://www.andertons.co.uk/guitar-stands/pid11315/cid584/quiklok-bs317-amp-stand.asp"]http://www.andertons.co.uk/guitar-stands/pid11315/cid584/quiklok-bs317-amp-stand.asp[/url]

Suddenly, the guitarist will understand why you think it's too loud :rolleyes:

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[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1327266632' post='1508670']
I usually use my 1x12" Princeton Reverb copy for guitar gigs, but today I played through an old silverface Twin Reverb in a rehearsal room, and was enjoying the "big amp" sound even though I wasn't playing louder than usual. It'd be interesting to figure out why that was pleasing (given that the two are voiced similarly), though maybe it's a psychological thing.
[/quote]

It`s the multiple speaker thing. I don`t play loud, but have never been satisfied with the sound from a single speaker (either on bass or guitar). I just find that although loud enough, there isn`t the depth that multiple speakers bring.

Gotta say though, I do find that 412s on guitar - especially when using gain - seem to "swamp" the sound. My preferred setup on guitar is 2x12s. Likewise, on bass, it`s 4x10s, tho my Barefaced setup of Compact (1x15) and Midget (1x12) was very good.

Edited by Lozz196
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We did a gig last year in a medium sized club venues with a metal band whose guitarist had 2 4x12 cabs stacked up...it was completely ridiculous. The sound guy tried in vain to get him to turn it down so he could mix it properly through the pa but t'was in vain...

A decent 2 x 12 combo has always been more than adequate for most of the guitarists I've ever played with. Our current guitarist occasionally uses his mesa combo which has a single 12...it sounds great but it's too directional... I much prefer it when he uses his fender twin...it just seems to spread the sound better.

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I recall many,many years ago doing my grade 5 guitar exam at the Marshall factory in Bletchley. The exam was conducted on the stage of the performance area, under banks of searingly hot lights. The amp setup Marshall had provided for us was an 8x12 stack that stood taller than me (I'm 6'3") and could have blown both of us off the stage at full tilt. Unfortunately they'd forgotten to provide something for the backing tapes (remember them?), so the examiner had to nip to the nearest branch of Comet where he purchased...... an Aiwa mini tape player (total output 5 watts - at a push). The smooth jazz track was an interesting prospect. Thankfully I passed, but when I got the report back it said he felt the tone for the jazz piece had been 'a trifle harsh'. No, really? :o

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I have a 4x12 (split steruo, and two power amps, 240watts). Yeah, it's loud. But I bought when I was about 17 and it was bigger than all my mates' amps, so I was cooler ;)

Pros of 4x12s? Complexity of tone (four speakers all distorting in slightly different ways. Same thinking as to why some big valve amps sound more complex than smaller ones - pairs of valves paralleled, all distorting in slightly different ways) and the ability to give you a big WHOMP in the chest when chugging (this was about 1999-2000. We played Nu Metal :angry: ).

But yeah, they are too loud. And they don't usually sound great at low volumes. My brother had the same issue with his Orange AD30R. 30w, 2x12. Too loud for almost everywhere without a THD hotplate.

I now mostly play through a 5w class A valve amp with a 10" alnico. [i]Still[/i] too loud for home, but would be fine for most small venues! And the tone... I wish more bands bought small valve amps and went through the PA to get the volume where it was needed for the venue.

I have also been giving some thought to making a small cab with four 6" speakers, though. Interested to see how it sounds, how complex it is, how loud it is, and whether I can tune it for decent low end (for guitar! Bass... forget it). Thinking a sort of "Mini Tweed Bassman".

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The volume thing is mostly about tone, but also about compression that makes the guitar come alive instead of being just a dull lump of wood and wire like an acoustic. A well cranked valve amp - and by that I mean one where the output stage is saturating and breaking up a little AND the speakers are being driven enough to break up a bit is a joy to play through like nothing else. There's compression that will make notes sustain, but it is also touch-responsive, so that hitting strings harder will give more volume. Notes feel like they spring out of the guitar instead of spiking and falling to the floor each time you hit a string, and the whole thing gives you an awesome sense of power and glory - like you could walk through walls or leap tall buildings.

Metal players with their fizzy pre-amp stages and stiff, clean power amps have no idea. ;)

It's really hard to find an amp that will give you that tone and feel at lower levels, and being a church guitarist, believe me, I've tried. Small amps below 10 watts generally don't have the grunt to push out bass frequencies, making the whole thing a bit shrill, but bigger amps get much too loud. Finding inefficient speakers can help until you need a little more headroom and cut. I've spent a lot of time on this and *for me* the best clean tones come from a single ended amp running a 6V6, 6CA7 or 6L6 for around 6 to 12 watts through a 10" speaker, and the best drive tones a push-pull amp with either EL84s or 6V6s through either a 20W Celestion G12M or Eminence Redfang (alnico). Single ended tends to get a bit flabby run dirty and PP a bit thin run clean - all other things being equal, which they never are.

Something to remember is that quite a few guitarists play be feel, rather than technique alone - much more so than bass players as discussions on this forum tend to confirm. To keep the guitarist happy you need to find a way for him to feel himself playing (hearing may not be enough) without the whole experience being ridiculously loud.

Tonight I'm playing out with some friends. We have an extra singer, meaning there's no space in the mixer to mic up my amp. I was asked if I'd mind bringing something loud enough to run un-aided. :D

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The last time I used a 100W top with 2 4x12s was in the mid 80s. The last time I used those cabs was in the late 80s with a 50W top. I refuse to sell them, and even now still fondly hope I'll get another excuse before I croak ...

These days a 2x12 combo does the trick - so long as I can stand far enough away from it.

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When will house Sound "Engineers" learn that the PA is for vocals, and maybe the drums. Bass and guitar amps can fill the space adequately enough ta very much.

Why else can a bassist justify running that 200/300/400/600w amp, if it's not to "fill the space"? Why not just run a DI into the PA, and save yourself the expense and backache?

Cos big bass amps, like big guitar amps SOUND GOOD.

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I`ve played at a few venues where, even before we`ve soundchecked, the house sound engineer has asked if i want to go through the house pa, and be in the monitors, or just cover it all with my rig on its own. At some places, in order to go through the FOH, I`ve had to be so quiet, I`ve not been able to hear myself - even through the monitors - so if a sound engineer asks this question, I know that`s the deal I`m likely to get, so I`ll run it standalone. At least I, and the rest of the band, will be able to hear the bass. Always wondered how drummers fare in that situation, if they can`t hear the bass either.

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  • 2 weeks later...

[quote name='Skybone' timestamp='1327426674' post='1511059']
When will house Sound "Engineers" learn that the PA is for vocals, and maybe the drums. Bass and guitar amps can fill the space adequately enough ta very much.
[/quote]

So how is the sound engineer going to do his job when he hasn't got basic volume control on all the instruments? PA is not amping up low volume elements, it's about control and balance.

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[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1328572304' post='1529509']
So how is the sound engineer going to do his job when he hasn't got basic volume control on all the instruments? PA is not amping up low volume elements, it's about control and balance.
[/quote]

If one defines the sound engineer's job as bringing up the volume of the vocals and possibly keyboards & drums to balance with the bass & guitar then he's doing his job. Some sound engineers *know* that they must have total control and are the only people capable of deciding exactly what the mix should be, while others will work with a band to help them get the best performance in the way that they want. It can be hard to trust a sound engineer to not sod sound up or bury your instrument. PA could well be about amping up low volume elements in order to get balance, if that's how the band wants it to be, but the band should always have control of their sound even if they delegate it to the engineer.

It is also necessary sometimes to have substantial volume on stage in order for various speakers to be working properly. There's a story related by Alvin Lee from 10 Years After where, when they were recording their first album they were required to turn down by the sound engineer (wasn't having any of that nonsense like they had with Clapton). As a result he said his guitar was so clean it sounded more like a banjo on the record.

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Agree. The best sound guy I`ve ever worked with is Bill at The Horn in St Albans. He simply makes you all louder, and equal in the mix, and doesn`t mess about with your sound/eqs.

He will quite happily accomodate the bands that do the "can I have extended upper mids on the initial attack of the snare, but leave the decay as a presence on lower mids only" and they always end up sounding worse than what he originally did, but, true professional, he does what the bands ask of him - it`s just a shame some don`t trust him a bit more.

The bands that do a quick sound check with him always sound great - those that take an hour, well invariably they don`t.

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Best onstage sound our band ever had was when both guitarists were using 1x12's. Plenty loud enough. They just like the look of having more more more. I don't blame them. I use a BFM Jack 15, very much loud enough, but I want another one on top just cos I can and cos it will look mega. Haha!

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[quote name='Ancient Mariner' timestamp='1328576455' post='1529564']
If one defines the sound engineer's job as bringing up the volume of the vocals and possibly keyboards & drums to balance with the bass & guitar then he's doing his job. Some sound engineers *know* that they must have total control and are the only people capable of deciding exactly what the mix should be, while others will work with a band to help them get the best performance in the way that they want. It can be hard to trust a sound engineer to not sod sound up or bury your instrument. PA could well be about amping up low volume elements in order to get balance, if that's how the band wants it to be, but the band should always have control of their sound even if they delegate it to the engineer.

It is also necessary sometimes to have substantial volume on stage in order for various speakers to be working properly. There's a story related by Alvin Lee from 10 Years After where, when they were recording their first album they were required to turn down by the sound engineer (wasn't having any of that nonsense like they had with Clapton). As a result he said his guitar was so clean it sounded more like a banjo on the record.
[/quote]

I fundamentally disagree with some of this.

The band can only know what the balance sounds like from where each individual is stood on the stage They are not in a position to know what it sounds like to the audience, which is what is important. A classic example being the guitarist (or even bassist) with his speakers pointing at his knees thinks he's too quiet while the audience are being deafened.

The band should be able to dictate the sound they want, but they need to do this via a sound engineer that they trust to get that sound. If everything is going through the PA to some extent then the sound engineer can do something about it based on the sound where he is, which is generally somewhere in the audience rather than on stage. If the bass and guitar don't go through the PA, and are fundamentally out of balance then the sound engineer is f***ed. Of course they can do this by asking the bassist or guitar to turn it down it bit and if that person will do that then that's fine, but a guitarist turn himself down ???? - come on now!



I agree that the sound engineer shouldn't be messing with individual tones, and that people need to hear what they are playing (but that's what foldback is for isn't it), but fundamental front of stage balance needs to be done from a pair of ears in the house, not on the stage. Putting everything through the PA allows the band to have the sound they want on stage, and the audience to have the sound that the band want them to hear as well.


Zee Count.

Edited by Count Bassy
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[quote name='Skybone' timestamp='1327426674' post='1511059']
When will house Sound "Engineers" learn that the PA is for vocals, and maybe the drums. Bass and guitar amps can fill the space adequately enough ta very much.

Why else can a bassist justify running that 200/300/400/600w amp, if it's not to "fill the space"? Why not just run a DI into the PA, and save yourself the expense and backache?

Cos big bass amps, like big guitar amps SOUND GOOD.
[/quote]

One of those gigs where the audience all stands in a line, in size order, right in front of the guitar cabinet?

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[quote name='Skybone' timestamp='1327426674' post='1511059']
When will house Sound "Engineers" learn that the PA is for vocals, and maybe the drums. Bass and guitar amps can fill the space adequately enough ta very much.

Why else can a bassist justify running that 200/300/400/600w amp, if it's not to "fill the space"? Why not just run a DI into the PA, and save yourself the expense and backache?

Cos big bass amps, like big guitar amps SOUND GOOD.
[/quote]

No, big amps sound good when used in an appropriate venue and only after the tech has removed all the unwanted crap. Have you ever checked a rig in an 800-1000 capacity venue when it was empty? I can guarantee the last thing you say is "jesus what an epic sound "[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][color="#000000"]. [/color][/size][/font]

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