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Any of you guys do theatre pit work?


jwbassman
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Hi guys...

I doing the Full Monty this week and next (playing for the musical version before you all get too excited) but there have been some issues with the sound at the theatre and was just wondering if you guys had anything similar happen to you...

I'm using my US P bass (2003 I think, it's the one with the S1 switching) which is spot on in terms of the sound I need for the show but there is an issue with the hearing aid loop in theatre, at least that's what I've been told.

It would appear that there is a feedback loop being created via the pickups, my amp, the radio mics and the hearing aid loop... that said the sound system in the theatre is supposed to be very good but I'm sure the guy working it hasn't got a clue - this could be where the problems lies so could be completely out of my control :)

The bass and keys are di'd to the front of house so the plan was that I can have a sensible monitor level from my cab in the pit - the theatre holds about 400 so it's not huge but the bass just doesn't carry past the fourth row just using the cab and the shows demands a solid bottom end.

It's a good job the S1 is there because when it's not in the feedback is uncontrollable, I've also had to back most of the top end and hi-mids off too.

Needless to say I've ended up not very happy with the sound but equally not sure what I can do about it - I'm even contemplating taking my active fretless down tomorrow to see if that makes a difference, it's not really suitable but if it means I can play without the threat of it feeding back then it's worth a try...

Edited by jwbassman
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I don't know if this will help, but you can give it a try:

Look at your gain stucture with your amp. It sounds to me like your bass pickups are acting too much like a microphone and causing the feedback. Is it because you have the input gain on your amp whacked up high? Perhaps turning this down, and the output up MIGHT just level out the gain path and help the situation. It's worth a try.

It may also be worth trying to keep your bass further apart from the amp if possible. If your bass is going through the PA, then turn your amp off as it's doing it and see if it stops. Then turn it back on, and get your sound man to mute you from the PA. It should determine whether it's the PA speakers or the amp that are causng the feedback path (or in a worst case, both!).

If it is the deaf loop causing the problem, there are tips on here about shielding your bass, or perhaps you can get your sound engineer to re-route the loop away from the pit.

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[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='191055' date='May 3 2008, 08:23 AM'][url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17227"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17227[/url]

Is this likely to be of any help?[/quote]

Thanks CK but no - that thread is about getting into doing theatre work - I have a specific problem with the gig I'm currently doing - just wondered if any of the more technically minded out there had a good suggestions that might help resolve the issues discribed above...

Thanks anyway...

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[quote name='Huge Hands' post='191110' date='May 3 2008, 10:26 AM']I don't know if this will help, but you can give it a try:

Look at your gain stucture with your amp. It sounds to me like your bass pickups are acting too much like a microphone and causing the feedback. Is it because you have the input gain on your amp whacked up high? Perhaps turning this down, and the output up MIGHT just level out the gain path and help the situation. It's worth a try.

It may also be worth trying to keep your bass further apart from the amp if possible. If your bass is going through the PA, then turn your amp off as it's doing it and see if it stops. Then turn it back on, and get your sound man to mute you from the PA. It should determine whether it's the PA speakers or the amp that are causng the feedback path (or in a worst case, both!).

If it is the deaf loop causing the problem, there are tips on here about shielding your bass, or perhaps you can get your sound engineer to re-route the loop away from the pit.[/quote]

Hi Huge Hands, thanks for the suggestions...

The gain on my preamp is set to about 5 as is the output, I usually have it higher to drive the valve in the pre but it was the first thing to go when the problems arose...

In an ideal world I would be a bit further from my amp but the pit is small and inevitably I'm very close to it, I did try turning it away from the bass but it didn't seem to make much difference.

I don't think they can re-route the deaf aid loop, as I said in my original post I don't think the guy really knows what he's doing so he probably couldn't do it even if it's possible, its such a shame that technical difficulties really spoilt the show last night - strange thing is on Thursday 'opening night' it all sounded great. There are probably too many variables at work here but I'll try and get down early tonight and see if we can try a few things as you suggested...

Thanks again

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Is the feedback a big rumble, or high pitched squealing?

It could be the valve in your amp acting as a big antennae - but then you said that it was ok if you switched the S1 in?

Hmmmm.

Lots of variable to play with. If you turn the amp off and it's still there, then it could be the sound guy doing something silly with the PA, rather than your amp.

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it's the high pitched squealing variety - when the tweeter on the cab was on it was alot worse - seems to be the high end frequencies causing the issue...

I'm not really sure what the S1 actually does but I know when it's in the problem is less, when it's not being used the problem is much worse...

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[quote name='jwbassman' post='191111' date='May 3 2008, 10:28 AM']Thanks CK but no - that thread is about getting into doing theatre work - I have a specific problem with the gig I'm currently doing - just wondered if any of the more technically minded out there had a good suggestions that might help resolve the issues discribed above...

Thanks anyway...[/quote]
Bugger, sorry for not reading your post more thoroughly. I should know better.

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Lots of possibilities but without knowing the complete signal chain from end to end it is difficult to say much cos you have only told us about one little bit of it. Are you using a DI box, are you using wireless, are you using cheap leads not properly shielded that are often the source of this kind of problem?

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[quote name='bass_ferret' post='191128' date='May 3 2008, 11:03 AM']Lots of possibilities but without knowing the complete signal chain from end to end it is difficult to say much cos you have only told us about one little bit of it. Are you using a DI box, are you using wireless, are you using cheap leads not properly shielded that are often the source of this kind of problem?[/quote]


Sorry if I'm not making myself clear - it was a frustrated post last night when I got in, here's a bit more info...

The DI is straight from my BBE Bmax preamp (which is supposed to be very good) - i've used this before at other venues and not had these problems.

No wireless - instrument cables my own (thanks to OBBM so more than happy that these of good quality) - xlr cable for the DI supplied by the theatre so as you suggest could be part of the problem...

I know we always have issues with the lighting setup effecting the sound too (when the lights comeup there seems to be a big hum to accompany them!) - my guess is that the pit electic supply crosses the lighting feed at some point. I think my current problems are an indication of some much bigger issues that the theatre are not prepared to look into properly and get resolved...

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• Are you near any reading lights or any stage lighting or dimmer packs?
• Is your guitar properly shielded?
• Are all relevant connections balanced line?
• Can you borrow a guitar with humbuckers?
• Are you on a different earth loop?
Is the problem that every body plugs in the mains where the can and mix the pa and lights with the same earth.
This makes interesting reading from sound on sound

[url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug06/articles/qa0806_4.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug06/articles/qa0806_4.htm[/url]

Edited by ironside1966
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[quote name='jwbassman' post='191127' date='May 3 2008, 11:00 AM']No worries - do you know what the S1 does on a Fender P Bass?[/quote]
I was told by a sales person it would make me grow bigger breasts, have smoother blemish-free skin, remove cellulite, help me lose 10kg, make me look good in a little black dress and endow me with an overwhelming sense of well being.

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I've done quite a bit of pit work-including Full Monty-and have come across the hearing loop buzz a couple of times.
I've found that you are more likely to be affected by the loop if the band is set up in front of the stage in a makeshift pit.In these cases,I usually end up working my volume pedal like mad,because the buzz is normally inaudible when playing,so just cut the signal off when theres no note to be played(even between notes if necessary)

Hope this helps a bit,and good luck on the show-its a great bass chair.

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I've worked in many pits and my experience of theatre sound techs has never been great. I am a bit stubborn (especially on DB) and get the sound I want near me and say to them "what you get out there is up to you, if it sounds sh*t it's your fault"
You've got enough on your plate trying to follow the guy waving that f***ing stick and paying more attention to the girly dancers than the band :)

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My experience with induction loops in our church is that hum-bucking pups are a major advantage, in that they reject any loop signals. On that basis, stay with the P bass unless your other bass is similarly equipped.

Also, a passive bass with the volume at 0 will still pick up from the loop because of the way the volume control is wired. If you need to kill the volume between songs, do it with a pedal, or on the pre-amp.

Finally, when I have played outdoors using a cheap power generator, I have found that the buzz increased when I took my hands off the strings - all my gear was checked and working - so you may find that you can lose some of the buzz by not putting the bass down between songs.

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Hey guys - thanks for all the suggestions and taking time to understand my frustrations...

here goes...

[quote name='ironside1966' post='191192' date='May 3 2008, 01:07 PM']• Are you near any reading lights or any stage lighting or dimmer packs?
• Is your guitar properly shielded?
• Are all relevant connections balanced line?
• Can you borrow a guitar with humbuckers?
• Are you on a different earth loop?
Is the problem that every body plugs in the mains where the can and mix the pa and lights with the same earth.
This makes interesting reading from sound on sound

[url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug06/articles/qa0806_4.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug06/articles/qa0806_4.htm[/url][/quote]

1 - Where in the pit which is front of stage below stage level - we have reading lights on the stands but I'm sure they have a different power supply - there are stage lights at the front of the stage not too far from the pit..

2 - it's a good question, I'm not sure - I had a good look over the bass when I got it and cleaned in all up inside and out all the wiring looked good but I'm not sure if there was any shielding in the cavities...

3 - The xrl to the wall box for the desk is supplied by the theatre, i'm guessing it is balanced...

4 - No don't think so, I'll have a think on this though...

5 - Another good question, I don't seem to be getting any earth hum so it's quite possible...

Thanks for the link I'll check it out...


[quote name='kevthebass' post='191202' date='May 3 2008, 01:27 PM']Daf Lewis on here is your man mate - He is a theatre / touring show specialist and is bound to have seen it all before

Suggest a quick PM to him - He's a top bloke too[/quote]

Thanks for the heads up I'll drop him a PM if things don't work out tonight :)

[quote name='Doddy' post='191234' date='May 3 2008, 02:38 PM']I've done quite a bit of pit work-including Full Monty-and have come across the hearing loop buzz a couple of times.
I've found that you are more likely to be affected by the loop if the band is set up in front of the stage in a makeshift pit.In these cases,I usually end up working my volume pedal like mad,because the buzz is normally inaudible when playing,so just cut the signal off when theres no note to be played(even between notes if necessary)

Hope this helps a bit,and good luck on the show-its a great bass chair.[/quote]

It's not a makeshift pit, it's a proper permenant type but it is at front of stage but below stage level... I don't have a volume pedal but tend to back the volume off when I'm not playing as you say this helps because when playing there is not too much of a noticeable noise - until it feedbacks :huh:

Thanks for your input - yeah the show is a good one for bass, plenty to do and some good riffs and grooves too :huh:


[quote name='Pkomor' post='191237' date='May 3 2008, 02:46 PM']I'm pretty sure the s1 switch is something to do with the series/parallel wiring, one way is series and one way is parallel, or did i just make that up?![/quote]

That rings a bell with me too but not sure what it actually means - I'm not good with electronics...


[quote name='jakesbass' post='191243' date='May 3 2008, 03:05 PM']I've worked in many pits and my experience of theatre sound techs has never been great. I am a bit stubborn (especially on DB) and get the sound I want near me and say to them "what you get out there is up to you, if it sounds sh*t it's your fault"
You've got enough on your plate trying to follow the guy waving that f***ing stick and paying more attention to the girly dancers than the band ;)[/quote]

I'll second that... I want the best sound so the rest of the band and the cast feel comfortable in that they can hear the fundamental parts going in and give them all something to anchor to and so that I'm happy and can concentrate on my playing and not worry about the sound, as you point out there is plenty else to concentrate on ;)


[quote name='Mottlefeeder' post='191284' date='May 3 2008, 05:33 PM']My experience with induction loops in our church is that hum-bucking pups are a major advantage, in that they reject any loop signals. On that basis, stay with the P bass unless your other bass is similarly equipped.

Also, a passive bass with the volume at 0 will still pick up from the loop because of the way the volume control is wired. If you need to kill the volume between songs, do it with a pedal, or on the pre-amp.

Finally, when I have played outdoors using a cheap power generator, I have found that the buzz increased when I took my hands off the strings - all my gear was checked and working - so you may find that you can lose some of the buzz by not putting the bass down between songs.[/quote]

My other bass is an Overwater - and from what I recall I've not had problems like this when using it - it's a fretless 5 so not really in keeping with the sound I need for the show, hence the p bass approach... as mentioned previously I back the volume right off my bass when not playing but it's stays in my hands all through the show, no time to put it down...

Once again thanks all for your input - lets hope things sort themselves out tonight, I'll get down early and try out some of your suggestions... cheers ;)

Edited by jwbassman
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I'm still wondering if it's a sensitivity issue. If the S1 is, as people have suggested, a parallel to series switch, then maybe one position is too sensitive for the preamp?

Possibly not noticeable in nice environments, but troublesome when in bad ones?

I reckon switching the other way is basically lowering the output from the pups (sensitivity) and therefore the noticeable noise, and associated feedback.

Not a nice problem, hope you can find a way around it. My suggestion, as a trial, would be to bypass your pre-amp altogether and see if you still get a problem. I know you probably won't want to, but if it helps....

The theatre should have a DI box if this is the case to allow them to get a feed without your pre.

Good luck!

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Like a previous poster, we have this problem practically every week at our Church. We normally sort it, cheekily, by simply taking the relevant instrument out of the hearing loop circuit (normally lead guitar, not bass). Might reduce the experience for the deaf but makes it bearable for everyone else.

I have no idea how acceptable this is in a paying auditorium :)

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[quote name='Huge Hands' post='191310' date='May 3 2008, 06:57 PM']I'm still wondering if it's a sensitivity issue. If the S1 is, as people have suggested, a parallel to series switch, then maybe one position is too sensitive for the preamp?[/quote]
It could be an impedance issue. Installing a preamp with input buffers could help maybe? Chat to John East too on his BC affiliates forum.

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Hi guys - thanks again for the suggestions and advice...

Update: The Show on Saturday night was awesome, completely different to Friday... the sound was incredible and the band sounded fantastic - bass and all...

I used my Overwater and the rest of the band said it sounded better than the P even though it was fretless... the issue was the hearing aid loop but a slight reposition of my amp, combined with a different bass and a much better sound guy (this one knew what he was doing). seemed to sort it all out.

I've heard that the other sound guy has hearing problems!! my guess is that as a result he changes all the eqs to boost the bass and trebles because he can't hear the extremes of the frequency range meaning the bottom end becomes all muddy and illdefined and the top is way too bight and prone to feedback.

After Saturday there is now no excuse for the rest of the run. It was so nice to enjoy the playing and not worry about the issues we'd had on the Friday, fingers crossed for the rest of the run :)

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