Some advice on new(ish) DBs please

[geoffbassist]

I know what you mean about this. I would love a better instrument, but would I spend the whole time worrying about it on gigs...very possibly. I think 2 basses is the only sensible answer ;-)

[Beedster]

I probably haven't explained my motivation very well above so I should clarify (as I did in the DB recording thread). The new bass is a recording/pleasure/safe-gig instrument. I'm not too worried per se about £3k's worth of instrument in the house or even at safe gigs. I however sold the German because I was very worried about £3k's worth of [i]120 year old and very fragile instrument[/i], even in the house. It was very light and never felt especially robust to me, certainly not compared to my Rumainian (aka The Beast). Over and above this, the more I spoke to experts about issues such as humidity, potential problems re previous repairs or unseen damage, I felt a weight of responsibility owning what was as much an antique as a musical instrument. I'd rather not have this feeling about a musical instrument.

So, given I went through the same process with EB (i.e, fascination with vintage moving to appreciation of benefits of modern), whilst I'm not happy to own an expensive antique, I am happy to own an expensive new or nearly new DB. My main concerns are, in no particular order tone, playability and durability. My current bass has durability, it has some degree of tone (quite good for bluegrass etc), but is very hard and tiring to play. I've taken it to two luthiers who've both said the same thing; it's not worth spending the several hundred pounds that would be required to make it play and sound like the instrument I'd like.

In short, it's going to stay because I like its honesty and the fact that I don't worry about it getting broken in pubs. However, I get very little pleasure from playing it, looking at it or listening to it recorded. What I really want to know from this thread is, if I'm going to spend between £1000 and £3000 on a new (or very nearly new) instrument that will provide the balance of tone, playability and durability that I'm after, on which instrument should I be spending it. To make an analogy with EB, I now play an MIJ '62 RI Precision. It's hard to tell the difference between it and a real '62, it's just cheaper, less likely to prove problematic structurally, and less anxiety inducing. OK, it doesn't have mojo of the real thing, but IMO mojo is highly overrated. Greg's newly acquired Profundo would have been perfect right now but for two things; I'm no fan of what I see as being the rather odd busetto body shape (not a deal breaker if it turns out that the Profundo is the best on the list), and the fact that it's already needed a repair. Don't get me wrong, for £1000 or thereabouts it's no doubt an absolute steal and probably as good as new, but I'm after a bass in which i can be 100% confident, or send back to Thomann or whoever under warranty if there's any problem. I live too far from a decent luthier!

I know the problems of buying new, I've read every thread here and on TB. There are of course limitations of doing so which I'll live with. What I really need is this; I've listed 6 new instruments above, I'd really appreciate any thought/experience with any of these, or any alternative new instrument suggestions.

Two years ago I would have been looking for the oldest instrument £3000 would get me. Things change eh

Chris

[stingrayPete1977]

Tim Toft cant be too far from you Chris?
Worth a call at least? [url="http://www.timtoftviolins.com/"]http://www.timtoftviolins.com/[/url]
Website is a bit clumsy, vague pricing and probably a lot more available if you call in or ring first.

[Beedster]

Thanks Pete, almost a 6 hour round trip believe it or not. I simply don't have the time for speculative visits to bass shops to be honest, and over and above that, most I've phoned have not had much stock anyway, despite what they say on their respective websites. Hence this thread

[stingrayPete1977]

Blimey just how far north does Wales go

[Beedster]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1379505661' post='2213412']
Blimey just how far north does Wales go
[/quote]

2 hours 42 minutes each way according to Google Maps! Up here it's not the distance, it's the slow roads, slow drivers and sheep. 18 miles to work can take over an hour (I can cycle it in 1 hour 15, but can't carry a DB on my bike)

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm sure someone more savvy than me could conjure an image of a man riding a double bass with wheels attached?

[Beedster]

[attachment=144072:Bass Bike.jpg]

[sarah thomas]

Mr Bassman said 'Have a word with John Patitucci'

Okay:-


Hi Sarah,

I think the reason why they mentioned me with regard to Busetto corners on a Bass is because the Pollmann bass that i have played for many years has those type of corners on it. you will also notice these on Prescott basses as well. I don't know how much it really affects the sound, but it does look nice, i think.

john P.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1379527855' post='2213790']
[attachment=144072:Bass Bike.jpg]
[/quote]
I was thinking a comedy one where the bloke rode the bass as a bike, I will give you 7/10 though

[Beedster]

Updated list of options

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Stentor Profundo [/font][/color][url="http://www.stentor-music.com/catalogue/html%20strings/22.htm"]http://www.stentor-m...0strings/22.htm[/url]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Roth & Junius RJKE Master [/font][/color][url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/rothjunius_europe_master_doublebass_2_3_4.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...ebass_2_3_4.htm[/url]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Gedo 3/4 [/font][/color][url="http://www.gedo-musik.de/shop/product.php?id_product=820"]http://www.gedo-musi...?id_product=820[/url]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Thomann Bohemia [/font][/color][url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/media_bdbviewer_AR_313754.html?image=10&small=1"]http://www.thomann.d...mage=10&small=1[/url]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Sinfonica [/font][/color][url="http://www.alangregory.co.uk/musicshop/Sinfonica_Antiqued_Gamba_Style_Double_Bass.html"]http://www.alangrego...ouble_Bass.html[/url]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Westbury [/font][/color][url="http://www.alangregory.co.uk/musicshop/Westbury_Gamba_Shape_Double_Bass.html"]http://www.alangrego...ouble_Bass.html[/url]
Eastman http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/eastman-master-series-double-bass
Klaus Heffler http://www.thomann.de/gb/klaus_heffler_kontrabass_nr210_3_4_gamba.htm

Now help me out here, there must be a few folks out there who've played or owned one or more of the above, or know folks who have? I've read very good things about the Eastman and the Sinfonica. Thoughts seem to be mixed on Stentors and Gedo. EWorth mentioning also that I find the lack of any information about the expensive DBs at Thomann (Roth & Junius and Klaus Heffler) somewhat odd, so I'm assuming these are either new to market instruments, rebranded, or an extremely well kept secret

Thoughts........?

[geoffbassist]

I like the Westbury and had a friend who used it on the classical course I was on. It was a nice little bass but I don't know if it would work for jazz though as it was set up for orchestra playing. Eastman have a good reputation, but I haven't played one.

One of the really hard things about bass hunting is that when you do find one and go and play it, they usually have a terrible set up and strings meaning you really cant tell anyway. It really is a crazy instrument :-)

[Beedster]

[quote name='geoffbassist' timestamp='1379664034' post='2215305']
I like the Westbury and had a friend who used it on the classical course I was on. It was a nice little bass but I don't know if it would work for jazz though as it was set up for orchestra playing. Eastman have a good reputation, but I haven't played one.

One of the really hard things about bass hunting is that when you do find one and go and play it, they usually have a terrible set up and strings meaning you really cant tell anyway. It really is a crazy instrument :-)
[/quote]

Thanks Geoff, yes, daft instruments, although having spent years negotiating the poor QC of vintage Fenders, I'm not unfamiliar with the phenomena of substantial variation between apparently identical instruments

I'm leaning towards the Eastman, no idea why really....

[Beedster]

If I mention Bryant or Upton will I get more responses

[SevenSeas]

I can't comment too much on Uptons, other than the fact that they look like great instruments and judging by their reputation they're probably very good. (However the problem is finding one locally to try out)

Bryants are very good but will need additional work but still great, I know for a fact as i'm currently trying to deal with Paul to try out his next Bryant, there are only the 'Soloist' models available and no longer to order. So when Paul feels like making one. (Also I have no idea how long the list for one is but as he is currently retiring getting a bass will become increasingly more difficult, unless brought second hand.

[FLoydElgar]

Dude I would go Bryant over anything... Within the price range! Atleast you know it's made by one man and all Made in the uk... Also you're supporting a kind mans retirement and hobby! Buy buy buy

[oggiesnr]

The problem I have with this is that not all basses are created equal, even basses of the same nominal name. For whatever reason one (for example Stentor) can sound brilliant, another like a cat howling, one can have superb build quality, another be a right mess. I found the same when I was looking for a new acoustic guitar, found a brilliant one at a music shop in Nottingham but didn't have the cash, one turned up at our local music shop, tried it and the let down was huge.

Your price range is what I'm in when I look for an upgrade and I fully intend to play the one I buy before purchase.

The chase is part of the fun

Steve

[Beedster]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1379740698' post='2216321']
Your price range is what I'm in when I look for an upgrade and I fully intend to play the one I buy before purchase.

[/quote]

I've done a lot of research over the last two or so weeks. I'm beginning to worry that it's a bit of an awkward price range in new instrument terms, that is I'm not sure that £3k will necessarily get me an instrument twice as good as £1.5k (or even £1k), but it seems that 'serious' instruments get going at about £5k (check out the entirely different manufacturers named in the other current thread looking at a £5k instrument). I get the feeling that whilst £1.5k and £5k might be on the steep slope of the price/value curve, £3k might be on the flat or even in a valley, a bit like a £1.5k Fender 'special', not much better than a £1k Fender, but probably nothing like as good as a £2k Sadowsky/Celinder.

I don't want to get into a price war with myself, but I worry that I'm going to spend £3k and wish I'd found another £2k down the line. As was said by the BC member who started the similar thread yesterday, I want this instrument to last me at least 10 years, if not 20. Over even 10 years the cost per per unit time falls away dramatically, £5k equating to about £10 per week, or a beer or two less per week at London prices

A visit to Thwaites strikes me as being the best bet? Any other suggestions for a well stocked DB shop?

Edited September 21, 2013 by Beedster

[henry norton]

If you're coming into town to go to Thwaites, you may as well take the time to head out to the Contrabass Shoppe in Surrey. Both shops know how to charge but when you're spending thousands you have to try before you buy.... Bridgewood & Niezert in Stoke Newington always had a few DB's in when I lived there and they seem to cater for the more reasonably priced end of the scale.
Gallery Strings are in Hastings, Sussex. Peter usually has frighteningly old and famous basses in stock (like tens of thousands of pounds) but apparently he's happy to do instruments for mere mortals too.
If this turns into a DB road trip you may as well go see Martyn Bailey in Essex and finally taking in Thomas Martin in Banbury on your way back to Wales. I'm sure if you manage all of them you'll never want to look at another double bass again [size=4] [/size]

[F Flat]

Dat basssssssss http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwN5QgZ81w

[Beedster]

Thanks guys

A question I keep coming back to is that of what I think of as the instrument value:antique/rarity value ratio with old DBs. With vintage Fenders is pretty clear cut; whilst old Fenders are hugely expensive, they are pretty much the same instrument as decent new Fenders (especially the good RIs), that is, all other things being equal, you'd be hard pushed to find a substantial difference in tone, playability etc. In short, the older the Fender, the more the ratio favours antique/rarity value, with a new Fender it's probably 10:1 in favour of instrument, with an old one (pre-CBS) probably 1:10 in favour of antique/rarity value (hope that makes sense, in short what I'm saying is that perhaps 90% of the value of an old Fender doesn't relate to it's value as a musical instrument but as a rare and collectible item).

What's the equivalent with DBs? If I buy an old instrument am I actually buying a better instrument (all other things being equal), or am I generally simply buying a playable antique that becomes more expensive/valuable the older/rarer it is without any of this increasing value being a function of its quality as an instrument?

I ride road bikes and I've been looking at Italian frames recently; the new carbon stuff is so much better, lighter, stiffer and responsive than the old steel frames, but the latter still command high prices on eBay. I'd never buy an old steel frame, there would be no point unless I was a collector. I might however buy a 2-year old carbon frame simply because it would be high quality but cheaper than buying new. I guess I'm wondering if it's the same with DBs. Given my budget, is my best bet buying a used modern instrument on the basis that I'd get more bang for my buck (OK, I recognise I may need to wait a while), or is there a genuine rise in quality associated with older instruments, and should I therefore revise my thinking and reconsider an oldie?

Cheers

Chris

[Beedster]

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1379761251' post='2216497']
If you're coming into town to go to Thwaites, you may as well take the time to head out to the Contrabass Shoppe in Surrey. Both shops know how to charge but when you're spending thousands you have to try before you buy.... Bridgewood & Niezert in Stoke Newington always had a few DB's in when I lived there and they seem to cater for the more reasonably priced end of the scale.
Gallery Strings are in Hastings, Sussex. Peter usually has frighteningly old and famous basses in stock (like tens of thousands of pounds) but apparently he's happy to do instruments for mere mortals too.
If this turns into a DB road trip you may as well go see Martyn Bailey in Essex and finally taking in Thomas Martin in Banbury on your way back to Wales. I'm sure if you manage all of them you'll never want to look at another double bass again
[/quote]

Thanks Henry, looks like the only option really. Love that blonde on your website BTW

[henry norton]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1379780069' post='2216716']
Love that blonde on your website BTW
[/quote]
Not mine sad to say - it's a 1950's German laminate and a very nice one at that.

A DB's value follows a slightly different pattern to vintage Fenders. Age has a certain influence on the price, but name and history will have a far greater effect, so with your budget you could probably pick up a very very nice German or French factory bass which'll have had the benefit of having been played for 150 years, possibly a top grading, back tuned and generally fussed over. An English or name Italian bass of the same age will cost you ten times that. It might sound better, might sound pretty similar but allot of the value is in the name and the history. Valuations are very tricky, as you're comparing a specific manufacturer's range of instruments (Fender) with effectively every double bass that's ever been made.... Valuations (even from so-called 'professionals') vary massively, and I still think the best path to a decent DB is to try as many privately listed instruments as possible and avoid shops altogether. If someone's taking the p#ss, you'll see it in the cracks, bad sound, soundpost in the wrong place etc. and you might come across just what you want.
You can't really compare them to bike frames - steel frames are obsolete for serious road racing whereas it's effectively the opposite for DB's. If bike frames followed the same pattern as a DB, a steel frame would stiffen up, become more responsive, ride and look better the more it's used.

[SevenSeas]

Have you spoken to Peter Tyler, he has some basses in your price range and has a very good reputation. I will probably go and visit him when I go on the hunt for 'the one'.

http://www.tylerbasses.co.uk/

[Beedster]

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1379785586' post='2216789']
Not mine sad to say - it's a 1950's German laminate and a very nice one at that.

A DB's value follows a slightly different pattern to vintage Fenders. Age has a certain influence on the price, but name and history will have a far greater effect, so with your budget you could probably pick up a very very nice German or French factory bass which'll have had the benefit of having been played for 150 years, possibly a top grading, back tuned and generally fussed over. An English or name Italian bass of the same age will cost you ten times that. It might sound better, might sound pretty similar but allot of the value is in the name and the history. Valuations are very tricky, as you're comparing a specific manufacturer's range of instruments (Fender) with effectively every double bass that's ever been made.... Valuations (even from so-called 'professionals') vary massively, and I still think the best path to a decent DB is to try as many privately listed instruments as possible and avoid shops altogether. If someone's taking the p#ss, you'll see it in the cracks, bad sound, soundpost in the wrong place etc. and you might come across just what you want.
You can't really compare them to bike frames - steel frames are obsolete for serious road racing whereas it's effectively the opposite for DB's. If bike frames followed the same pattern as a DB, a steel frame would stiffen up, become more responsive, ride and look better the more it's used.
[/quote]

Thanks Henry, I think you've very nicely summarised what I've started to realise through an awful lot of internet reading!