di problem solving

[0175westwood29]

ok so i ve had an idea that im hoping solve a problem ive had for a while.

basically i use alot of distortion in my sound, my "clean" sound is a mesa flux drive with gain at 3/4 into my terror with the gain at about 11 so pretty dirty, im getting a pedal made at the min which will add both fuzz and octave to my sound.

short version of the story i really like the sound that my 410 puts out but no sound guy will mic up a bass rig they just di, not a massive prob but the fuzz just doesnt sound as gd borrowed a swollen pickle, as on stage sounded fat on the pa wasnt the same.

so basically thinking of getting an sm57 and micing up the cab myself taking the di from my head and the feed from the cab mic and sending them into a mixer getting a nice mix then sending that to the foh?

anyway od doing this thinking of getting a mini desk but they dnt seem to have di outs? from what i can see?

andy

[0175westwood29]

[url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MX882.aspx"]http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MX882.aspx[/url]

think something like this would work well?

getting a rack mount eq to put into my orange effects loop so can grab a 2unit rack to lob this in aswell will this work to mix the signals?

andy

[6v6]

Have you considered using a DI like the [url="http://www.palmer-germany.com/mi/en/PDI-09-Passive-DI-Box-for-Guitars-PDI09.htm"]Palmer PDI-09[/url] which provides speaker simulation and connects between the amp output and speaker cab? That would probably provide something close to a mic'd up sound without the hassle and disadvantages of micing the cab up.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1388058608' post='2318127']
Have you considered using a DI like the [url="http://www.palmer-germany.com/mi/en/PDI-09-Passive-DI-Box-for-Guitars-PDI09.htm"]Palmer PDI-09[/url] which provides speaker simulation and connects between the amp output and speaker cab? That would probably provide something close to a mic'd up sound without the hassle and disadvantages of micing the cab up.
[/quote]

Or this ...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/behringer-ultra-g-gi100-di

[0175westwood29]

Looked at the palmers but there about 300 notes,

And i really wouldnt mind micing my cab

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388065838' post='2318222']
Looked at the palmers but there about 300 notes,
[/quote]
Or £25 for the behringer

[quote]
And i really wouldnt mind micing my cab
[/quote]

I have to say I don't really get where this urge to mic bass cabs comes from. Probably well over 95% of bass sounds you hear on studio & live recordings, at concerts, on TV etc etc don't involve any physical cab sound. Generally a bass cab just isn't contributing much to the sound beyond an EQ curve which can be easily emulated by other means, unlike say a guitar speaker which often operates in its compression/distortion zone. Also you have to remember that even DI'ed your sound will be going through at least one set of speakers - the PA, I just don't think bass sound withstands the extra colour of a speaker->mic->speaker signal path as well as say a guitar sound.

IMO its a load of hassle for yourself and the sound engineer and probably in most cases a degraded front of house sound compared to a good DI.

Edited December 26, 2013 by bassman7755

[paul_5]

You may be giving the sound engineer a massive headache, as there can be phase problems between the DI and the microphone signal.

[JapanAxe]

Be very careful if using any DI connected to the speaker output of a Class D amp such as the Bass Terror. Whereas conventional speaker outs usually have one terminal earthed (bridged mode excepted), this is often not the case with Class D. The result of connecting such a terminal to earth is usually a pop, a puff of smoke, and then silence. Although DI boxes usually have an earth lift switch, it is all too easy to set this wrong and fry your amp.

To me, your best option is to connect a speaker-emulating DI box to a dedicated DI output. This should take the unnatural fizziness out of the sound without risking your amp. I have had good results with the Behringer G100, but there are plenty of other options.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1388076953' post='2318336']
Be very careful if using any DI connected to the speaker output of a Class D amp such as the Bass Terror. Whereas conventional speaker outs usually have one terminal earthed (bridged mode excepted), this is often not the case with Class D. The result of connecting such a terminal to earth is usually a pop, a puff of smoke, and then silence. Although DI boxes usually have an earth lift switch, it is all too easy to set this wrong and fry your amp.

To me, your best option is to connect a speaker-emulating DI box to a dedicated DI output. This should take the unnatural fizziness out of the sound without risking your amp. I have had good results with the Behringer G100, but there are plenty of other options.
[/quote]

Im basically looking at taking the di out of the head, and mixing it with the mic sound,

So wouldnt be using the speaker output.

So that shouldnt involve the head being at risk should it?

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1388076683' post='2318335']
You may be giving the sound engineer a massive headache, as there can be phase problems between the DI and the microphone signal.
[/quote]

Id be looking to just give the sound guy one di feed so id pre mix the 2 together, so id sort the phase thing myself

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1388072112' post='2318281']

Or £25 for the behringer



I have to say I don't really get where this urge to mic bass cabs comes from. Probably well over 95% of bass sounds you hear on studio & live recordings, at concerts, on TV etc etc don't involve any physical cab sound. Generally a bass cab just isn't contributing much to the sound beyond an EQ curve which can be easily emulated by other means, unlike say a guitar speaker which often operates in its compression/distortion zone. Also you have to remember that even DI'ed your sound will be going through at least one set of speakers - the PA, I just don't think bass sound withstands the extra colour of a speaker->mic->speaker signal path as well as say a guitar sound.

IMO its a load of hassle for yourself and the sound engineer and probably in most cases a degraded front of house sound compared to a good DI.
[/quote]

I could understand it for ppl with a clean sound but with dirt i think the bass cab has a lot of input.

[Lozz196]

This is where we bassists get a rough deal, we spend a lot of time, research (and money) on getting the equipment we want - as do guitarists, drummers, keyboard-players etc - yet when it comes to going through FOH the majority of the others get their exact sound whereas us, well it seems we don`t.

For this reason all of the eq, drive and compression I use is off of my Zoom B3, essentially using my Markbass combo as a power amp (luckily the B3 has Little Mark amp-modelling on it). So when I go FOH, it`s straight from the B3, so FOH gets my sound. I`ve encouraged our other bassist to do the same, so he gets all his eq/drive from his Behringer BDI21. So whether we go FOH, or use provided backline, we still have our own sounds.

[6v6]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388065838' post='2318222']
Looked at the palmers but there about 300 notes,
[/quote]

The one I linked is [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/palmer_pdi09.htm"]£71 from Thomann[/url]

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388079892' post='2318369']


Im basically looking at taking the di out of the head, and mixing it with the mic sound,

So wouldnt be using the speaker output.

So that shouldnt involve the head being at risk should it?
[/quote]

No that would be fine

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1388097426' post='2318584']
No that would be fine
[/quote]

figured it would be.

looking at getting all the bits for this secondhand from either here or evilbay.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1388087789' post='2318460']
This is where we bassists get a rough deal, we spend a lot of time, research (and money) on getting the equipment we want - as do guitarists, drummers, keyboard-players etc - yet when it comes to going through FOH the majority of the others get their exact sound whereas us, well it seems we don`t.

For this reason all of the eq, drive and compression I use is off of my Zoom B3, essentially using my Markbass combo as a power amp (luckily the B3 has Little Mark amp-modelling on it). So when I go FOH, it`s straight from the B3, so FOH gets my sound. I`ve encouraged our other bassist to do the same, so he gets all his eq/drive from his Behringer BDI21. So whether we go FOH, or use provided backline, we still have our own sounds.
[/quote]

totally agree have seen a few sound guys mic up a 5w fender practice amp for one guitarist i played with then they turned to there bassist who was using my amp and said wheres the di? can u imagine a guitarists face if a sound guy said where your line out?

obviously if i was using say a dif cab i doubt i would do this but for the most part i would prob be using my own gear, or atleast head so i get mostly my sound and could deal with it for say an opening slot but if i can get the sound i hear in the foh when im using my rig. as i have said i really do think the obc410 does add something.

andy

[operative451]

I've got one of these: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx It allegedly gives the sound of a 4x12 - you're supposed to be able to put it between a power amp and speaker using the direct link to cabinet and then DI from power amp to mixer. I like mine, it sounds pretty awesome!

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1388150886' post='2318886']
I've got one of these: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx It allegedly gives the sound of a 4x12 - you're supposed to be able to put it between a power amp and speaker using the direct link to cabinet and then DI from power amp to mixer. I like mine, it sounds pretty awesome!
[/quote]

Yes that is what I incorrectly described as a G100 in my earlier post. The two 20 dB pads mean it can cope with anything from line level to speaker level.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1388152417' post='2318907']
Yes that is what I incorrectly described as a G100 in my earlier post. The two 20 dB pads mean it can cope with anything from line level to speaker level.
[/quote]

so up for trying this a temp fix (who knows it could work) but im guessing its safer to just buy a xlr to jack and use the di out on the amp rather than inline with the speaker cables as i dnt want my amp to go pop.

andy

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388152800' post='2318910']


so up for trying this a temp fix (who knows it could work) but im guessing its safer to just buy a xlr to jack and use the di out on the amp rather than inline with the speaker cables as i dnt want my amp to go pop.

andy
[/quote]
One solution would be to run a mic and the balanced DI out from your amp into two channels of a small mixer, and take that signal to the PA.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1388160051' post='2319004']
One solution would be to run a mic and the balanced DI out from your amp into two channels of a small mixer, and take that signal to the PA.
[/quote]

thats my ideal plan, would something like this do the trick?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MX882.aspx

as the small mixers ive scene have no di out?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388160761' post='2319009']


thats my ideal plan, would something like this do the trick?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MX882.aspx

as the small mixers ive scene have no di out?
[/quote]

That would do it. Not sure whether it is overkill though!

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1388161729' post='2319014']
That would do it. Not sure whether it is overkill though!
[/quote]

think they go cheapish second hand

[LukeFRC]

most mixers will give a balanced line out....which is more or less the same as a DI out...

In my opinion you're going about this wrong way....
a 57 in front of your cab would work kinda... but would be harder to mix, a pain for the stage volumes, and therefore give the sound guy less control over the sound (i.e. the band sound, not your sound) -
the ideal from FOH sound is no amp sound/stage sound, and your mix via IEM and the only audible sound being the FOH. the monitor mix is a compromise and so is the amp sounds... guitar amps are a pain as they are so directional and most guitarists seem to have way too big ones for what you need. (Micing up a [i]good[/i] 5w amp isn't a bad idea btw....)
So if I were your sound guy I would possibly think micing up your cab wasn't the best idea....

So lets look again at the problem you have....
you have the mesa pedal into the orange amp.... and DI'ed the fuzz sound doesn't sound right in the PA...
So the sound you have comes from your bass.... into your pedal.... and into your amps preamp.... and out to DI or out to the cab....
so the pedal, preamp and bass sounds are getting to the desk.... but - what's the difference between your cab sound and the PA sound? My guess... as it's fuzz... there's way more high end in the PA - whereas your 410 is rolling off way earlier - making a fat fuzz and fizz.
The easy way would be to work with the PA guy to take the top end off your signal (which shouldn't be a problem), and make sure he's not scooping the mids... otherwise some way of Eqing the signal to roll off the top end that goes to the PA would work...

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1388166126' post='2319062']
most mixers will give a balanced line out....which is more or less the same as a DI out...

In my opinion you're going about this wrong way....
a 57 in front of your cab would work kinda... but would be harder to mix, a pain for the stage volumes, and therefore give the sound guy less control over the sound (i.e. the band sound, not your sound) -
the ideal from FOH sound is no amp sound/stage sound, and your mix via IEM and the only audible sound being the FOH. the monitor mix is a compromise and so is the amp sounds... guitar amps are a pain as they are so directional and most guitarists seem to have way too big ones for what you need. (Micing up a [i]good[/i] 5w amp isn't a bad idea btw....)
So if I were your sound guy I would possibly think micing up your cab wasn't the best idea....

So lets look again at the problem you have....
you have the mesa pedal into the orange amp.... and DI'ed the fuzz sound doesn't sound right in the PA...
So the sound you have comes from your bass.... into your pedal.... and into your amps preamp.... and out to DI or out to the cab....
so the pedal, preamp and bass sounds are getting to the desk.... but - what's the difference between your cab sound and the PA sound? My guess... as it's fuzz... there's way more high end in the PA - whereas your 410 is rolling off way earlier - making a fat fuzz and fizz.
The easy way would be to work with the PA guy to take the top end off your signal (which shouldn't be a problem), and make sure he's not scooping the mids... otherwise some way of Eqing the signal to roll off the top end that goes to the PA would work...
[/quote]

dnt take anything the wrong way here please, none of it meant with anything.

when you say a 57 isnt the best way to go do you mean via leakage? or the fact ill need to be loud for it to work? my volume on my terror never goes above one and im always really careful of my volume, i dnt think i could ever not have an amp on stage.

id be looking to give the foh a mix maybe 70/30 cab/di so would be a single feed same as if he'd plugged into my di on the amp.

yeh the signal path goes thru several pedals but is basically bass-pedalboard(with the mesa overdrive)-terror bass-410obc, never noticed a massive dif as i think the board probably do scoop a tad but i boost my mids slightly in my eq, but yeh it just doesnt sound as fat with the fuzz ( ive been borrowing a swollen pickle) im getting a shiney new cog effects fuzz next year :-) thru the pa as it does on stage. and even cutting top end doesnt really help as the overall sound is changed when really the effected pedal is the fuzz.

but if i know where i want the mic and have the mix of both sorted for him its just like hes getting a fatter di.

andy