Phil Starr Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Thanks for the offer, I haven't forgotten. I'm going to do some simple sketches by hand, which for me is quicker and also write up the design. I've had a couple of offers to turn them into drawings so I'll send them out to people to turn into something usable as soon as I can. I'll also build a last cab and photograph the process so everyone can see how it goes together. I'll pm you when I get further on with the drawings. We can publish the whole thing as a build diary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Phil my originalm idea was to use a slot port but I have changed my mind. Why make more work for yourself, We now know the design works so why not stick with the 12mm ply and the round ports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Like Passinwind, I don't enjoy woodworking. I find getting a straight cut with a perfect right angle nigh on impossible. If I were to build one of these I'd want to take a cutting list to the woodmerchant and get him to cut the pieces to size which I could then take home and assemble using simple tools. I'd therefore prefer an easy build with a shelf port and perhaps one semi-circular brace or a back brace. I'd go for 18mm birch ply for ultimate quality - or 18mm poplar ply if light weight is important. 18mm chipboard would be another option for someone who wants to try out the design without investing too much initially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Passinwind talks a lot of sense Stevie and when I said DIY was not the cheap option. What I really meant was that if you are looking for the lowest cost, DIY is not the way to go although this project does seem to disprove that. As for woodworking skills, fair point. Mine are reasonable although there is no sense in making the big cuts yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1435606079' post='2810561'] I was going to go for an even simpler to build design with a slot port and less elaborate bracing in 18mm 3/4" ply. The current prototypes are heavily braced 12mm ply with four tubular ports (plastic drainpipe). It's a simple job to cut the port holes with a hole saw costing less than £10 and once that is done it is an easy build, [/quote] What sort of bracing did you use on the cab? I've gone back through the thread and can't find a description or a piccie. I've just cut the wood for a 1x12 with an Eminence Deltalite II 2512 which I have, so I'd be interested in your design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Is poplar ply something you can find in decent timber merchants, or is it a more specialised item? There are a couple near me who will also do cutting, but I haven't asked them if they do poplar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Poplar is a bit specialist - that's a good point. It's not something you'll find at B&Q, although I think most major cities have an outlet. There's a supplier near you in Grangemouth. My experience with wood merchants is that they will get hold of whatever you ask them for from their suppliers. It's not usually a stock item though. Edited June 30, 2015 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1435663707' post='2811068'] Poplar is a bit specialist - that's a good point. It's not something you'll find at B&Q, although I think most major cities have an outlet. There's a supplier near you in Grangemouth. My experience with wood merchants is that they will get hold of whatever you ask them for from their suppliers. It's not usually a stock item though. [/quote] There's one a bit closer to me who say on their website they have a range of speciality plywoods, so I could give them a ring too. Is the Chinese poplar core ply worth a look, or should it be the European stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 [quote name='ColinB' timestamp='1435659126' post='2810992'] What sort of bracing did you use on the cab? I've gone back through the thread and can't find a description or a piccie. I've just cut the wood for a 1x12 with an Eminence Deltalite II 2512 which I have, so I'd be interested in your design. [/quote] It was very simple, though I do have a bench saw which made it easier. I cut all the offcuts of ply into 3.5cm strips, I then made them into H shaped pieces two running across side to side and two top to bottom and adjusted to be a firm friction fit, they were glued in place and then front to back braces used to brace the other two panels and bracing the cross pieces also. I also used reinforced butt joints where the panels are joined, a 25mm sq batten screwed and glued along all the joints which further stiffens the cab and makes it easy to build without any special clamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1435665361' post='2811099'] There's one a bit closer to me who say on their website they have a range of speciality plywoods, so I could give them a ring too. Is the Chinese poplar core ply worth a look, or should it be the European stuff? [/quote] I've no personal experience but I've heard that the Chinese stuff is to be avoided as it delaminates and is full of voids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1435666808' post='2811125'] It was very simple, though I do have a bench saw which made it easier. [/quote] It looked very neat when I saw it. Perhaps a photo would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1435671339' post='2811226'] . I've no personal experience but I've heard that the Chinese stuff is to be avoided as it delaminates and is full of voids. [/quote] Below is my original post but Alwx's subsequent post suggest I am wrong. I will leave it unaltered so the next post makes sense! I am not sure of the quality of Chinese ply but the point about voids is an urban myth. When ply is made, adhesive is used to glue the layers together but it is kept under enormous pressure until the adhesive is set, the excess adhesive is squeezed to wards the edge but any knot holes or gaps are filled by the adhesive, The only voids you may find is a knot hole on the outer surfaces. However you can specify really nice looking wood for the front and back of the boards but the better stuff is exoensive. Edited June 30, 2015 by Chienmortbb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1435674584' post='2811284']I am not sure of the quality of Chinese ply but the point about voids is an urban myth. When ply is made, adhesive is used to glue the layers together but it is kept under enormous pressure until the adhesive is set, the excess adhesive is squeezed to wards the edge but any knot holes or gaps are filled by the adhesive[/quote] I'm not sure how much ply you've seen but I can assure you that categorically isn't true! The phenolic adhesive which holds ply together does not fill the voids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1435675765' post='2811311'] I'm not sure how much ply you've seen but I can assure you that categorically isn't true! The phenolic adhesive which holds ply together does not fill the voids. [/quote] Absolutely. I have a work bench I made out of 18mm Far East Ply and it's got so many voids it looks reminiscent of Emmental. You can massive voids in cheap far east ply, I've used it quite a lot for various things, and the adhesives used to stick it all together goes no where to filling the voids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Oh well one good myth destroyed by another. I must have just been lucky. Of course I have been making cabinets since 1970 but maybe my 5 builds does not give a representative sample coated to Alex's experience. Two more questions then. Is there such a think as void free ply. I mean can you order bios free or do you just have to purchase and hope. Secondly what is a void? I can only imagine knit holes or possibly where two sheets of veneer have not been lined up properly before the adhesive sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpaws Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1435665361' post='2811099'] There's one a bit closer to me who say on their website they have a range of speciality plywoods, so I could give them a ring too. Is the Chinese poplar core ply worth a look, or should it be the European stuff? [/quote] I am in Bo'ness Beerman. I think Walker Timber can do Poplar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpaws Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1435665361' post='2811099'] There's one a bit closer to me who say on their website they have a range of speciality plywoods, so I could give them a ring too. Is the Chinese poplar core ply worth a look, or should it be the European stuff? [/quote] I am in Bo'ness Beerman. I think Walker Timber can do Poplar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpaws Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1435665361' post='2811099'] There's one a bit closer to me who say on their website they have a range of speciality plywoods, so I could give them a ring too. Is the Chinese poplar core ply worth a look, or should it be the European stuff? [/quote] I am in Bo'ness Beerman. I think Walker Timber can do Poplar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6v6 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1435690807' post='2811548'] Oh well one good myth destroyed by another. I must have just been lucky. Of course I have been making cabinets since 1970 but maybe my 5 builds does not give a representative sample coated to Alex's experience. Two more questions then. Is there such a think as void free ply. I mean can you order bios free or do you just have to purchase and hope. Secondly what is a void? I can only imagine knit holes or possibly where two sheets of veneer have not been lined up properly before the adhesive sets. [/quote] You need to ask for birch ply suitable for cabinet making - some say void free, but if you chat with a decent timber merchant they'll sort you out with the good stuff. The problem with the cheap far eastern ply is when you either try to joint it (screws/biscuits), or rout to do say a round-over, box/finger joint, dovetails, or whatever, you'll discover there's two sheets of reasonable laminate with a mush of weak stuff in the middle which will blow to pieces the second you touch it with a fast rotating router bit. Decent European birch ply is a totally different material IME, it's much, much stronger, and much, much nicer to machine - you can easily rout say a joint or a roundover and it machines more cleanly than a piece of solid wood. FWIW I used 15mm latvian birch for my 1x12 build, which is a good compromise between strength and weight, although it's slightly harder to find than 12/18mm. It's twice the price of the far eastern ply, but well worth it IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passinwind Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1435690807' post='2811548'] Two more questions then. Is there such a think as void free ply. I mean can you order bios free or do you just have to purchase and hope. Secondly what is a void? I can only imagine knit holes or possibly where two sheets of veneer have not been lined up properly before the adhesive sets. [/quote] I should really know a lot more about this subject than I do, given that plywood production was the #1 industry in my little hometown until very recently. The company that makes the [url="http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/product/europly-plus/#"]sheets I used in my last few builds[/url] have a pretty comprehensive online guide to grading: http://mydigitalpublication.com/publication?m=29753&l=1 The Europly that I used was a little different than the newer spec, with alternating layers of alder and birch. Pretty heavy, but a total joy to machine and quite attractive for natural finishing. Expensive as all get out too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Interesting - I know Stevie is saying he would go for 18mm over 15mm ply, at the same time the trend is for better braced super light 12mm a-la Purple Chili or Barefaced. Personally if I were building it myself, which already is harder than going to a shop I would come up with a design that was more fiddly to build but more lightweight at the end- but that might just be me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (and I'm not the designer!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpaws Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 An 18mm ply cab with less bracing will not behave the same way as a 12mm ply can with more bracing. But can we hear the difference? Some clever person on here might know. I would still go for a slightly trickier 12mm braced design. A project is a project after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1435788036' post='2812552'] An 18mm ply cab with less bracing will not behave the same way as a 12mm ply can with more bracing. But can we hear the difference? Some clever person on here might know. [/quote] There's only one way to find out, looks like I'm building the 18mm cab after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1435788036' post='2812552'] An 18mm ply cab with less bracing will not behave the same way as a 12mm ply can with more bracing. But can we hear the difference? Some clever person on here might know. [/quote] This is true - and it's one of the topics we discussed in PM but were never able to resolve. We probably need to do some calculations for weight and stiffness. My personal observations are these. An unbraced 12mm cabinet of this size is unacceptable for bass, as it rings too much. Phil's bracing method was very effective in damping this ringing (unlike some commercial offerings I've tried), but his 12mm cab was not as inert as my 18mm cabinet on the knuckle-rap test. I'd say it was an acceptable compromise in view of the weight savings, but it does make the build more complicated. The big unknown is 18mm poplar ply, which would be even lighter than the 12mm birch, have better internal damping and probably require less bracing - but would cost more. It does seem to be the material of choice of the mainstream makers of high-end lightweight bass cabinets. I'd also mention that there are some pro PA cabinet manufacturers using 18mm poplar for their bass cabs (although the overwhelming majority use 18mm birch) but nobody is using 12mm birch. [quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1435788036' post='2812552'] I would still go for a slightly trickier 12mm braced design. A project is a project after all. [/quote] The bracing looked tricky, but Phil is saying that in practice it isn't. So perhaps it is not really an issue. Edited July 2, 2015 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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