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NPAVAD (New No Longer Prototype British Built All Valve Amp Day)


JPJ
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Hello boys and girls,

Like an excited small child at Christmas, I have to share this with you :gas:

I've just spent the afternoon in the company of Mr Martin Ballinger of Stoneham Amps [url="http://www.stonehamamps.co.uk"]http://www.stonehamamps.co.uk[/url] and his prototype 200w hand wired british made valve bass amp. Whilst I must stress this is very much a prototype build, he is definitely on the right tracks as far as I am concerned.

The amp looks like the old Marshall Superbass, and offers a three-band passive tone stack, gain & master volumes. The other two controls in the pictures are currently labelled feedback and presence but these are for development only and I understand will not feature in the finished product.

The tone stack is very musical, none of your semi-parametric +/-15dB nonsense, just a good old fashioned musical tone stack that does what it says on the tin. The thing I particularly liked was the mid control, and how it affected the sound without introducing any brittleness to the tone, even when fully open. The bass and treble worked in exactly the same way, and I'd recon it would be nigh on impossible to get a bad tone out of this amp. Yes, your not going to be able to get the super scooped mid sound you get with a 12 band graphic eq, but that's not what this amp is about.

Now its been along time since I owned a full valve amp, but on plugging in I was immediately reminded of the 'spring' that a full valve amp offers over a transistor or hybrid amp. We tested the amp using my SWR 6x10 and the roundness of tone was something to behold. I loved the way the full 'width' of every note is heard and how 'digging in' affected only the output level, not the tone. The amp was barely idling in my home office but it handled everything my clumsy playing could throw at it (including some five string low B 'bombs') without breaking up. Unfortunately, I couldn't really drive the amp hard at home so cannot comment on when/if distortion occurs or how musical the distortion is, but based on the clean sound, I'm sure this will also be a joy to hear.

Martin plans to upgrade to either a 300w or 400w output stage (I requested 400w for maximum guitarard killing capability) and to finalise the layout to suit a more bass amp 'standard' (i.e 19" width). The finished product will include niceties such as a mute switch, tuner out, DI with ground lift & possibly pre/post switching, and an effects loop will be offered as an option.

Martin would welcome any feedback from you guys as to what features you might want/expect from an all british, hand wired, valve amp, so please comment away! Oh, and if the final models come in close to the price point he indicated, then please form an orderly queue behind me :D

Final thing, if your going along to the North East Guitar Show this coming Sunday, then Martin will be there with the prototype for you to try out for yourself.





Edited by JPJ
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Excellent.

I've gone back to valve bruisers recently (Fender Bassman 100T's), but gigged a guitarist friends' UK hand built Gartone Marshall Super Bass 100w Clone - tweaked it briefly, and stood back in awe throughout the gig. It was love and the volume on tap was mental. If I didn't already have 2 of the Fenders' I'd be making my friend an offer.

My only suggestions would be:
minimising the size of the amp casing at all, so it fits on more modern bass cabs ?
2 channels, one clean and the other nuts ?
Speakon connectors ?

Edited by mxm
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[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1394644500' post='2393678']
Wow, thats lovely..
Whats the valve config? 3x ECC83 and 4x KT88? Oh, and can I have a look at the chassis and transformers.
Can you tell I like this amp? :lol:
[/quote]

This, exactly this!

200w is a perfect amount, given that the tone controls on my AD200b are set to noon and forget I'd go for a simple 2 knob gain and volume layout misself as if it sounds good, it sounds good...

will he be doing cabs too?

how cool would it be to tour a fully uk built bass rig in this era of 'the uk doesn't build anything'!

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Looks fantastic! Not sure what else to suggest in terms of features - what else do you need on a quality valve amp other than gain, bass, mid, treble and master?
Also, I could see more of a market in a 100w version than a 400w one.
What is the width? I wonder whether it would be possible to make it the same width or less than a standard 4/6/8x10

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At the moment, this is very much a prototype assembled in a couple of days on a spare chassis Martin had in the workshop, so no pictures of the internals yet :-)

Size wise, we discussed a smaller width, to suit standard cabs, so more 19" style than the current case and Martin is looking into this as he said there is a lot of spare real estate inside the current case.

As for speaker cabs, these are in the pipeline but too early to say anything now ;-)

I'm hoping Martin will join in on here so he can get your feedback first hand. Interestingly, it was me pushing him toward 400w, as I'm not sure id be happy with only 200w behind me.

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My old Trace was 200w and that was great especially through the less than perfect MAG210 cab i ran it through. I could have it loud enough to compete and have it in that 'cooking' zone.. It was a monster through the Trace 1084 (8x10)!

I think these amps look lovely and I expect they do the sound thing very well too.

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Looks very nice and I'm sure it sounds wonderful however why build a modern day amp to the width of a Marshall 4x12 cab when most folk are using cabs that are much narrower. Even a 19-inch flight case can be too wide for some. Having an amp hanging over the cab just looks ill conceived and untidy.

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[quote name='obbm' timestamp='1394648786' post='2393728']
Looks very nice and I'm sure it sounds wonderful however why build a modern day amp to the width of a Marshall 4x12 cab when most folk are using cabs that are much narrower. Even a 19-inch flight case can be too wide for some. Having an amp hanging over the cab just looks ill conceived and untidy.
[/quote]

As per above, that's just a prototype, and the liklihood is that production models will be 19" or less.

I agree with you entirely. I couldn't own a rig with a head wider than a cab.

Edited by Roland Rock
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[quote name='obbm' timestamp='1394648786' post='2393728']
Looks very nice and I'm sure it sounds wonderful however why build a modern day amp to the width of a Marshall 4x12 cab when most folk are using cabs that are much narrower. Even a 19-inch flight case can be too wide for some. Having an amp hanging over the cab just looks ill conceived and untidy.
[/quote]

Dave, this is very much a prototype, built on a chassis Martin had spare in the workshop and using a similarly spare head case. The finished article will be sized smaller to suit 'modern' cab sizes and I know he's still chewing over the aesthetics.

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[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1394649529' post='2393739']
As per above, that's just a prototype, and the liklihood is that production models will be 19" or less.

I agree with you entirely. I couldn't own a rig with a head wider than a cab.
[/quote]

Just spotted that point. Excellent.

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[quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1394646998' post='2393707']...as I'm not sure id be happy with only 200w behind me.[/quote]

If you've not done it before, use this amp (or a similar spec one...) before embarking on requests for more power. We use a 200w Hiwatt. It would take a very, very large stadium, and a truckload of cabs to need more. 200w of valve is uber-power, and will break concrete. There can be very little true demand for amps like that (some, sure, but far from the majority, I'm pretty sure...). Yes, a 100w version would be popular. Try 'em first...

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If 200w ain't enough... :unsure: I'd be worried!

As I've previously said, I have gigged with 60w and whilst it was a bit marginal I would do it again. 100w - 200w is ideal IMO for a valve amp into a decent cab(s) and as stated above, just how loud do you want to be..

As long as the asthetics and practicalities are attended to, I think this line of amps could be a real winner. The only other amps (that are still in production at least) which seem to have the balance struck correctly are Matamp and the big Ashdown CTM models. I'm not normally a fan of Ashdown (ABM etc) but they really do look spot on. My personal faves were always the Trace V-Type series and even tho I haven't owned a V4 for years, when V6s crop up, I do hover over the 'Buy it now' button.

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[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1394673930' post='2394002']
If 200w ain't enough... :unsure: I'd be worried!
[/quote]

My main gig has two 100w 4x12 loving guitarists cluttering up the sonic soundscape. I like a big fat juicy clean tone and my concern with 200w is that I might be pushing the amp to the point of breakup hence the desire for 300/400w under the hood. My current rig is 1500w, although that's transistor watts and I know they are quieter than valve watts ;-)

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[quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1394677241' post='2394012']
My main gig has two 100w 4x12 loving guitarists cluttering up the sonic soundscape. I like a big fat juicy clean tone and my concern with 200w is that I might be pushing the amp to the point of breakup hence the desire for 300/400w under the hood. My current rig is 1500w, although that's transistor watts and I know they are quieter than valve watts ;-)
[/quote]

This is our set-up (1 x Marshall 1/2 stack, I x Mesa 2/90 stack; they ain't quiet...). In the Hiwatt there are 4 x KT88; they are the key to clean bass to the ceiling. No, it does not 'break up'. Yes, it copes very well with the guitars. Any more power (festivals etc...) is taken on by FOH PA. As mentioned above, one would be in an enormous stadium to 'need' 400w of valves. The Hiwatt was designed to be used with 4 cabs (minimum 2...). The equivalent 400w version implies 8 cabs (4 x 12 were the 'norme' at the time, not 2 x 10...). We're in Lemmy territory here. There are no pubs that I know of that 'need' that kind of power to get loud clean bass. If the band is playing [i]that [/i]loud, they're measured, not in db, but on the Reichter scale.
Just sayin'...

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my ad200b runs on 1/4 volume and 1/4 gain and it's freakin' loud even through just on obc115 cab! there's bass everywhere, rich fruity huge bass, it's fills a cavernous church building and makes all the fittings rattle! I'd be terrified with even more power! for more volume just add more cabs!

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God I hate being this predictable:

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]"... [i]as to what features you might want/expect from an all british, hand wired, valve amp [/i]..."[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]How about something that doesn't need two roadies and a fork-lift truck to move?[/font][/color]

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Hi everyone, Martin here from Stoneham Amps, thanks to everyone for your feedback so far this is very informative. To answer a few points raised, the prototype shown above was built out of curiosity and loaned to the bass player in my own band; he was that taken by it I realized I may be onto a winner so I'm taking the concept further.

This amp has 4 x 6550, is it the general consensus that KT88 are the way to go, and what are your thoughts on 6550 themselves (I used them as I had some!!). Thanks to a compact aluminium chassis this weighs in at 20 kilos, so rather than a forklift, a couple of weetabix in the morning should be all you need.

The criticism of the width overhanging the cab was expected and duly received, the final product shall be standard 19" width. I'll be looking at offering various power options, probably just 200w and 400w to start with. 200w does sound low to some but I would really recommend listening to a 200w valve amp before ruling it out

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[quote name='Stoneham' timestamp='1394718395' post='2394363']...This amp has 4 x 6550, is it the general consensus that KT88 are the way to go, and what are your thoughts on 6550 themselves (I used them as I had some!!). Thanks to a compact aluminium chassis this weighs in at 20 kilos, so rather than a forklift, a couple of weetabix in the morning should be all you need...[/quote]

Good afternoon, Martin, and welcome to the forum...

To my mind, the concept of bass is the ruling factor here. Some folks want 'clean' bass, some want 'grit'. Speaking purely for myself, I would always go for 'clean' (hence KT88...), and add 'grit', if required, from effects. The Hiwatt concept does this to a 'T'. Those that require 'grit' from the power amp would, I suggest, prefer the 6550 school, and 'bend' the o/p valves. I'm not sure that there's much 'middle ground' here. One wants basically clean, or one wants grit. I don't think it's possible (or, at best, it's not easy...) to get both in the same amp.
As for the weight issues, I'm 'old school' (that's normal; I'm old...), and remain firmly convinced that, for valve amps, most of the 'sound' comes from the O/P trannie. This involves (almost literally...) tons of heavy metal. I've yet to come across an exception. Why this should be I'll leave to the experts to debate. Is the result worth the extra cost and weight..? I think the answer can be found in the continuing value of original 'Partridge'-equipped amps. There are few that maintain their desirability without something of that quality in there.
Just my tuppence-worth; good luck with your products, they look great.

Disclaimer: Although I play bass, I'm principally a drummer. :rolleyes:

Edited by Dad3353
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