Does everyone erm ....know their scales?

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1396646226' post='2416142']
Wow... !! Lighten up a little !! No need to go on the defensive.


It's all the same to me whether you are for or against theory.

I was merely trying to make a point by way of an analogy.

Take it or leave it....doesn't matter.
[/quote]ha ha.

Didn't mean it to come across like that.

[lojo]

I could play you inconic lines on request, like rhythm stick through to rio and what's going on, but I could only tell you the basics of the scales involved.

That's why a call myself a bass player and not a musician.

[oggiesnr]

I know scale shapes which is slightly different.

Steve

[lowlandtrees]

Scales are very useful to understand music....as long as you don't play them live

[Annoying Twit]

When I see discussions about music theory being 'limiting', my response is to ask people to name some music that wouldn't have been written by someone who understands music theory.

Many of the most outrageous composers who broke all the rules had a very good understanding of music theory, e.g. Zappa, Stockhausen, etc. While some composers who don't have a good understanding of music theory are musically very conservative. E.g. Brian Eno.

A knowledge of 'the rules' is as much an invitation to break them as it is to follow them. And if someone understands their scales, then they know what they are doing when they go outside the boxes. I seem to recall reading a quote by John McLaughlin saying that he knew what every semitone sounds like in all tonalities,

Personally my impression of people who avoid music theory is that they spend all their time rediscovering the lydian mode or the VIIm7b5 chord, and then congratulate themselves for going into uncharted territory that no theoretician would every find. However, on the other hand it may help with inspiration if people believe that they are exploring uncharted territory, this may be more inspiring than if they know that this has all been done many times before. George Martin reported that the Beatles were very excited by the last vocal harmony chord of 'She Loves You', saying that it had never been heard before. GM said that he told him that the chord (a major 6th I believe) had actually been used in music before.

I don't know if there is really much in the way of music that can't easily be reached from standard scales. On youtube there's an example where someone solos over a chord with 40 different scales. It's very interesting to hear how the first few scales put really interesting different flavours into the music, but after a while, there are considerably diminishing returns. I would like to know where this music is that will sound good and natural, and isn't accessible through theory. And by "accessible through theory" I include modifications such as playing the Mixolydian mode, but playing the major 7th on descending runs. (I bet this actually has a name ).

[Dr.Dave]

Know my scales ?? God , no ! I don't know the names of the notes above the fifth fret. I just do it. No idea how and I can't remember what it's like to not be able to play anything I want. Not that I'm advocating anyone do it my way. It's a good thing to have as much musical knowledge and theory as possible and I'd encourage any player to get those skills. It's just that I couldn't be arsed.

[Johnm93]

Well, it looks like there are as many approahces to playing as there are players...

I have just started to take scales and pentatonics more seriously and, it seems, they help me quite a bit.

Still class myself as a beginner, but it [seems] to be helping me 'listen' to what I am doing. If that makes any sense.

[ambient]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396558982' post='2415187']
Even Jeff Berlin doesn't recommend learning things you will never need.
[/quote]

How does he know what he'll never need ?

[Coilte]

Because the OP specifically asked about [i]scales [/i]for this thread, this is (correctly) what we all have been talking about.

However, while there is no denying how important it is to study them in dept, they are only one aspect of what is required to be an "all round" musician. Knowing about chord tones, approach notes, harmony etc are equally important. If, as I mentioned in an earlier post, "knowing" scales consists of playing up and down the neck from root to root, this is not going to be of much help. Besides, as a bassist, it is chord tones/arpeggios we will play for the majority of the time.

This is explained here on "Studybass" :

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/[/url]

[Coilte]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396558982' post='2415187']
Even Jeff Berlin doesn't recommend learning things you will never need.
[/quote]

Berlin also does not recommend using the metronome.

Some agree...the majority don't.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1396710076' post='2416663']
Know my scales ?? God , no ! I don't know the names of the notes above the fifth fret. I just do it. No idea how and I can't remember what it's like to not be able to play anything I want. Not that I'm advocating anyone do it my way. It's a good thing to have as much musical knowledge and theory as possible and I'd encourage any player to get those skills. It's just that I couldn't be arsed.
[/quote]

I would expect that you probably have a lot of musical knowledge and theory, but probably developed through trial/error and flexibly reusing patterns from songs that you know. Maybe you don't know the names for the concepts you've (re-)discovered, but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a whole lot of reusable bass music knowledge in your head.

[BassBus]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1396714101' post='2416704']


How does he know what he'll never need ?
[/quote]

When a player only wants to play in a covers band which means learning someone else's lines parrot fashion, why spend hours learning endless modes and diminished scales when he/she will never use them. If that player then chooses to move into a genre such as jazz then those skills will be useful but not before. So why waist time.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

One of the most important reasons to learn music theory IMHO is that it gives you the ability to communicate in a quick, concise and precise manner what is going on in a given musical situation - having this knowledge doesn't mean that you become a lifeless automaton who can only reproduce whatever is placed in front of them on a musical score, or drain you of your attitude or the energy you bring to your playing.

Imagine not being able to understand the english language in written form, you could still chat freely in person or on the phone, but the amount of information/ideas/art you had free access to would be severely constrained, even something simple like leaving a message on the fridge door as a reminder to pick up something from the shops on the way home from work would be impossible.

It is really easy to get defensive and dismissive about things that test you on an emotional level that is connected to early childhood experiences in school, and I would bet that part of the fear that is associated to music theory is playing on a much deeper sensitivity related to experiences studying maths in school, and losing confidence or feeling humiliated as a result of failure (which is the fault of the teacher, not the student in these situations) - the natural reaction when facing a similar situation as an adult is to become defensive and to avoid the challenge, and this is one of the most challenging aspects of teaching adults - you need to get past the emotional baggage in order to re-establish the persons confidence and empower them to learn. I don't recall the exact videos, but Scot Devine relates this situation really nicely in a couple of his videos, which is both courageous and very astute as a teacher.

[Coilte]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396720371' post='2416784']
When a player only wants to play in a covers band which means learning someone else's lines parrot fashion, why spend hours learning endless modes and diminished scales when he/she will never use them. If that player then chooses to move into a genre such as jazz then those skills will be useful but not before. So why waist time.
[/quote]

I can see the point you are making, but IMO anything you learn that leads to a fuller understanding and enjoyment of music, is not a waste of time. You dont have to lock yourself away for hours on end, sweating over modes or scales. Just to be open and curious about the "nuts and bolts" of how music works is all that is required, rather than dismissing theory out of hand as being unnecessary or limiting.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Coilte

[ken_white]

I know some scales.. What does everyone learn instead of scales? Are a lot of people in cover bands spending lots of time working to tab?

Edited April 5, 2014 by ken_white

[discreet]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396687909' post='2416376']
...some composers who don't have a good understanding of music theory are musically very conservative. E.g. Brian Eno.
[/quote]

I wouldn't call Brian Eno 'musically very conservative'. The opposite, in fact.

[jezzaboy]

Scales???

It takes me all my time just to remember what notes are what on the fretboard. I learnt bass via the Pete Way style of bass playing. Not that I am running down old Pete`s style of playing mind or comparing myself to him.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1396724492' post='2416832']
I wouldn't call Brian Eno 'musically very conservative'. The opposite, in fact.
[/quote]

In the arrangements, maybe. But his actual composition is quite conservative. Simple chord progressions and melodies. Look at the chords for "Spider and I". http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/brian_eno/spider_and_i_crd_796920id_02032009date.htm Look at Sky Saw. http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/brian_eno/sky_saw_tab.htm It has that John Cale viola and interestingly arranged Percy Jones bass (from memory), but musically it's quite simple.

[discreet]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396726523' post='2416879']
In the arrangements, maybe. But his actual composition is quite conservative. Simple chord progressions and melodies. Look at the chords for "Spider and I". [url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/brian_eno/spider_and_i_crd_796920id_02032009date.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate...2032009date.htm[/url] Look at Sky Saw. [url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/brian_eno/sky_saw_tab.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate...sky_saw_tab.htm[/url] It has that John Cale viola and interestingly arranged Percy Jones bass (from memory), but musically it's quite simple.
[/quote]

We'll have to agree to disagree about this. Just because some of his work is musically simple doesn't necessarily make it conservative in my book, but of course your mileage may vary, etc. Look at the range and variety of styles and ideas on 'Apollo', for example.

[ambient]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396720371' post='2416784']
When a player only wants to play in a covers band which means learning someone else's lines parrot fashion, why spend hours learning endless modes and diminished scales when he/she will never use them. If that player then chooses to move into a genre such as jazz then those skills will be useful but not before.So why waist time.
[/quote]

Might be useful if said function band get a new singer and have to transpose the songs in their repertoire to a new key, or do songs that need key changes. It's not always just a case of moving the lick that you've learned like a parrot down a fret, or up a fret.

But might you also say that learning most other things in life are a waste of time, why learn anything unless you're specifically definitely going to use it ?

My question was actually rhetorical, how [i]does anyone [/i]know what they're [i]not[/i] going to need to know at some point ?

[discreet]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1396728776' post='2416905']
It's not always just a case of moving the lick that you've learned like a parrot down a fret, or up a fret.
[/quote]

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1396728635' post='2416904']
We'll have to agree to disagree about this. Just because some of his work is musically simple doesn't necessarily make it conservative in my book, but of course your mileage may vary, etc. Look at the range and variety of styles and ideas on 'Apollo', for example.
[/quote]

I was talking about the application of musical theory in composition, as that's what's relevant (in my opinion) for the subject of this thread. Apollo: Atmospheres and Soundtracks has pieces that are mostly just sequences of quite simple chords. What makes it interesting is the degree of minimalism (a musical theory in itself), and the voicing/synthesis programming/production of the pieces. Compare Apollo to, say, Zappa's Jazz From Hell.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[Coilte]

[quote name='ken_white' timestamp='1396724140' post='2416829']
Are a lot of people in cover bands spending lots of time working to tab?
[/quote]

You are opening another can of worms here !!

[ambient]

[quote name='ken_white' timestamp='1396724140' post='2416829']
I know some scales.. What does everyone learn instead of scales? Are a lot of people in cover bands spending lots of time working to tab?
[/quote]

I suspect people spend hours searching the internet for incorrect TAB. Then spend ages correcting the incorrect TAB whilst listening repeatedly to the track on youtube or something.

Instead of spending a bit of time learning basics like the notes on the fretboard and a little bit of basic theory which would actually make the whole thing so much easier.

That's rock and roll I guess, and it's really a well known fact that musical knowledge stifles creativity .

[ken_white]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1396733331' post='2416953']


I suspect people spend hours searching the internet for incorrect TAB. Then spend ages correcting the incorrect TAB whilst listening repeatedly to the track on youtube or something.

Instead of spending a bit of time learning basics like the notes on the fretboard and a little bit of basic theory which would actually make the whole thing so much easier.

That's rock and roll I guess, and it's really a well known fact that musical knowledge stifles creativity .
[/quote]

Damn I love my methods lol
Pick the root notes, make the rest up based on scales and arpeggios lol