Mixing Advice Required - help desperately needed, more like!

[Sean]

My band has recently recorded three songs and the guy that recorded them has done a first mix for us which is pretty horrendous to say the least; even the unmixed tracks sound better! The recording process was absolutely fine and the individual tracks sound ok (I think), it's just that when he's done the mix, it's weak weedy, bass and drums sit too low in the mix, and my bass sound has been turned to mud. Lots of other issues too.

It's not complicated stuff, straightforward rock originals with just bass, live drums, vocals and a few guitar tracks so I wasn't expecting the guy to make such a pickle of it.

Can anyone recommend someone or somewhere that we can use to get our stuff mixed properly and without costing the earth?

I guess the guy wouldn't be bothered about burning the stems on to disc for us. Would anyone anticipate an issue with this?

If anyone would like to hear them I can upload to Soundcloud.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Sean

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1397828151' post='2427743']...Can anyone recommend someone or somewhere that we can use to get our stuff mixed properly and without costing the earth?...[/quote]

Good afternoon, Sean...

Maybe a PM to Skol303 could be useful..? He sets up our Mixing Challenge here. In fact, if you're not in too much of a hurry, I'm sure there's several here who would love to get the chance to mix this for you..! Then there's 5imon, of course, who may be able to suggest something a bit more professional. Post us a link to your present mixes and see what others think..?

[Sean]

Thanks for that.
Here's the unmixed tracks on bandcamp [url="http://outlandsmusic.bandcamp.com/"]http://outlandsmusic.bandcamp.com/[/url] - when I say unmixed, I mean that I asked for the mix as it was sitting on Logic when we left to be bounced to disc so I could listen on the way home.

Here's the tracks as mixed, which we got back a few days ago:
[url="https://soundcloud.com/seanfunk1/build-me-up-1st-mix"]Someone Like You[/url]
[url="https://soundcloud.com/seanfunk1/harder-we-try-1st-mix"]Build Me Up[/url]
[url="https://soundcloud.com/seanfunk1/harder-we-try-1st-mix"]Harder We Try[/url]

The band has got what I would say is a big but airey sound when we play in rehearsal rooms. My bass always sits well up in the mix and cuts through - I'm fortunate enough to be in a band where the leader (vocalist) loves bass driven songs and likes it to cut through. The guitars sound weak and the drums have no punch. The backing vocals seem to dominate and are way over the top.

To me at the moment, sharing this stuff feels a bit like getting your puss-ridden tackle out on that [i]Embarrassing Bodies[/i] TV show.

Any advice gladly received

Edited April 18, 2014 by Sean

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

If the guy recorded it on logic , maybe he could email to someone who also has logic. The recipient. Could perhaps make improvements that way.
The last demo my last band did was a complete nightmare. Because mr. Guitar did not want to pay the same as the rest, he got 2 dj's he knew.
However, I noticed that they recorded it on logic at the time. If I understood it , I could have done a better job of it myself.

Over to others ....

[lurksalot]

The DAW doesn't matter really if all the stems are wavs then any DAW can be used for the job .
I guess like most things you get what you pay for , though luck can come into it both ways.
Some good advice already though

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1397833635' post='2427785']
The DAW doesn't matter really if all the stems are wavs then any DAW can be used for the job .
I guess like most things you get what you pay for , though luck can come into it both ways.
Some good advice already though
[/quote]

Does this mean even garageband, could do it ?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1397831933' post='2427776']...Any advice gladly received [/quote]

Sean...

I've given 'em a quick listen through, with headphones; they're not as bad as your description (imo..!). Not saying that they're perfect, but I've heard (much...) worse on the radio. Yes, the bass is quite far down in the mix, the guitars are a tad over-powering and the lead voice is not as far 'out front' as I would expect, but having listened equally to the 'raw' mix, there's been some work done. The drums sound quite suitable for the genre; perhaps a touch more kick..? All is a matter of taste, of course, but it's not a complete train wreck nor sabotage.
If the stem WAVs were available, any DAW should be able to re-mix, although the fx and treatments used would be different (a Good Thing..?). Can you not get the original fellow to go over it all with yourself and/or other band members, to get an overall sound you (jointly...) prefer..? Will these be re-mastered before release..? That, too, will affect the final result.
An interesting case (although that won't comfort you much, I shouldn't think..!); I've 'tagged' for following...

[Sean]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1397835958' post='2427814']
Sean...

I've given 'em a quick listen through, with headphones; they're not as bad as your description (imo..!). Not saying that they're perfect, but I've heard (much...) worse on the radio. Yes, the bass is quite far down in the mix, the guitars are a tad over-powering and the lead voice is not as far 'out front' as I would expect, but having listened equally to the 'raw' mix, there's been some work done. The drums sound quite suitable for the genre; perhaps a touch more kick..? All is a matter of taste, of course, but it's not a complete train wreck nor sabotage.
If the stem WAVs were available, any DAW should be able to re-mix, although the fx and treatments used would be different (a Good Thing..?). Can you not get the original fellow to go over it all with yourself and/or other band members, to get an overall sound you (jointly...) prefer..? Will these be re-mastered before release..? That, too, will affect the final result.
An interesting case (although that won't comfort you much, I shouldn't think..!); I've 'tagged' for following...
[/quote]

I think the first solution will be for the singer to go and sit with the guy for a while and try to make some changes however I think they'll need quite a bit more treatment before we'll be happy.

How will the mastering change the sound? < complete noob question and not facetious btw. Currently scrambling all over the internet trying to soak up as much info on recording, mixing and mastering.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Sean

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1397836537' post='2427827']...How will the mastering change the sound? < complete noob question and not facetious btw....[/quote]

A whole subject in itself; I'm no expert, but here's a brief notion or two...

Once upon a time, there were 78s. They had a particular 'sound'. If one was recording, knowing that 78s were to be the final medium, one could attempt pre-compensation so that the result was 'better'.
Then came 33s, with a very different dynamic. A particular sound. The same original recording would require quite different compensation to get it to sound 'better'.
Now here come cassettes, so again we adjust. CDs..? Same thing; change the mastering to suit the medium.
One may, nowadays, choose which 'sound' one is targeting (destination discothèque, or car radio, or hi-fi; there's tons of 'genres'...) or 'type' of music (mastering for Folk, or Heavy Metal, Reggae or Classical Concert...).
How is it done..? An even more vast subject, which I'll leave for the more expert, but it basically involves multi-band filtering and compression, for instance. Not for pretty little heads like mine to understand.
My initial remark was to suggest that final judgement for a mix should, ideally, be made after all stages are finished, including mastering, if applicable. I've often come across mixes which sound fine pre-master, but horrible post, and vice versa.
Hope this helps...

Edited April 18, 2014 by Dad3353

[lurksalot]

[quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' timestamp='1397833970' post='2427788']
Does this mean even garageband, could do it ?
[/quote]

I dont know garage band to use , but I would have thought so , it can be used for mixing and it can import wav files , so thats it , I am sure that there are plug ins to help with the finer detail , so dive in

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

Thank you

[Sean]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1397837281' post='2427833']


A whole subject in itself; I'm no expert, but here's a brief notion or two...

Once upon a time, there were 78s. They had a particular 'sound'. If one was recording, knowing that 78s were to be the final medium, one could attempt pre-compensation so that the result was 'better'.
Then came 33s, with a very different dynamic. A particular sound. The same original recording would require quite different compensation to get it to sound 'better'.
Now here come cassettes, so again we adjust. CDs..? Same thing; change the mastering to suit the medium.
One may, nowadays, choose which 'sound' one is targeting (destination discothèque, or car radio, or hi-fi; there's tons of 'genres'...) or 'type' of music (mastering for Folk, or Heavy Metal, Reggae or Classical Concert...).
How is it done..? An even more vast subject, which I'll leave for the more expert, but it basically involves multi-band filtering and compression, for instance. Not for pretty little heads like mine to understand.
My initial remark was to suggest that final judgement for a mix should, ideally, be made after all stages are finished, including mastering, if applicable. I've often come across mixes which sound fine pre-master, but horrible post, and vice versa.
Hope this helps...
[/quote]

I think I get it. Thanks.

[moonbass]

It's true that a lot of mixing choices are subjective, but it sounds like the mix engineer didn't have any discussion with you about what you wanted from the mix. He also seems to have made some unusual decisions for a modern recording; did he play guitar in the 80s? It certainly sounds like a guitarists take on drums. There is a big lack of punch to them that is easily dialled in on Logic, even just using drum presets. This would be easily demonstrated to him by taking him some music you would like it to sound like to reference against. Sorry to say I wouldn't have high hopes for him delivering what you're after.

Although mastering can add some punch to tracks, it's not going to save this one I'm afraid. Imagine it like adding an Instagram filter to a photo; it might look a little cooler, but if the original photo's rubbish, it's still going to look rubbish.

I think the idea of handing the tracks over for Basschats mixing competition is good. It would certainly make you aware of how many different ways there are mix a song.

I would say though that the tracks sound like they could do with more instrumentation; most recordings will have a few more bells and whistles in (sometimes literally). But if you're just after a live sounding demo then that's a different matter.
A.

[Sean]

[quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1397894680' post='2428253']
It's true that a lot of mixing choices are subjective, but it sounds like the mix engineer didn't have any discussion with you about what you wanted from the mix. He also seems to have made some unusual decisions for a modern recording; did he play guitar in the 80s? It certainly sounds like a guitarists take on drums. There is a big lack of punch to them that is easily dialled in on Logic, even just using drum presets. This would be easily demonstrated to him by taking him some music you would like it to sound like to reference against. Sorry to say I wouldn't have high hopes for him delivering what you're after.

Although mastering can add some punch to tracks, it's not going to save this one I'm afraid. Imagine it like adding an Instagram filter to a photo; it might look a little cooler, but if the original photo's rubbish, it's still going to look rubbish.

I think the idea of handing the tracks over for Basschats mixing competition is good. It would certainly make you aware of how many different ways there are mix a song.

I would say though that the tracks sound like they could do with more instrumentation; most recordings will have a few more bells and whistles in (sometimes literally). But if you're just after a live sounding demo then that's a different matter.
A.
[/quote]

Yes! The guy was a lead guitarist with an 80s glam metal band that was featured in Kerrang back in the day :-D Nice spot!
I've requested the tracks so handing them over for the Basschat competition won't be an issue.

When I've recorded rock tracks in the past I've included acoustic guitars and tambourine low in the mix just to give some extra texture, is that the kind of extra instrumentation you mean?

[moonbass]

Haha, guitarists very rarely seem to 'get' drums.
Yes, tambourine, acoustic guitar, bouzouki, maracas; anything can flesh out a track sonically. There are many ways to look at it, but after you've got the main instruments down you have to think what is going to fill up the sound from left to right, and from high to low frequency? It's rare that guitar bass and drums can do this alone and maintain interest over an album (but can be done). More often than not you'll need contrasts between lots of instruments and wide panning, and few instruments with narrow panning to break up sections of a song.

[ironside1966]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Basically you get what you pay for, good studios cost. There are many talented home studio engineers and that includes people on this forum but there are also many people out there setting them self’s up has commercial studios and mobile recording units that don’t have the skills do it and the ears to know they are just not that great. I should know I have remixed quite a few projects form people like this. [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]If you are going to pay someone for recording do your home work listen to their work first. [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif] [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]I will have some free time after this month after this month is over if you would like me to have a go. [/font]

[Sean]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1397915106' post='2428587']
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Basically you get what you pay for, good studios cost. There are many talented home studio engineers and that includes people on this forum but there are also many people out there setting them self’s up has commercial studios and mobile recording units that don’t have the skills do it and the ears to know they are just not that great. I should know I have remixed quite a few projects form people like this. [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]If you are going to pay someone for recording do your home work listen to their work first. [/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]I will have some free time after this month is over if you would like me to have a go. [/font]
[/quote]

I think the main mistake I made with this guy is that the previous two times I was involved I was in a covers band and the guitarist in that band spent a long time guiding the mixing process to what he wanted and consequently the results were pretty good.

I'd be absolutely delighted and eternally grateful for you to have a go at it if you want to . I've asked for the stems so will keep you up to date.

[ironside1966]

No problem glad to help.
You could use drop box or post the tracks to me. It would make life so much easier if all the tracks were just one stem each and started at the same place.
Look forward to working with you.
John

[Sean]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1397938528' post='2428916']
No problem glad to help.
You could use drop box or post the tracks to me. It would make life so much easier if all the tracks were just one stem each and started at the same place.
Look forward to working with you.
John
[/quote]
One stem each? Could you try and explain a bit more. Feeling like a complete noob ATM so please don't feel as if you're being patronising, I'm firmly on the learning curve.

[Diablo]

You could do a lot worse than give Andy Baxter a call http://www.andybaxterbass.com/ as he does not just sell bass guitars, his den in London is a studio and he works with a producer of all sorts or stuff. It has been said above - good mixing/producing may not be cheap, but you generally get what you pay for. Personally I'd give him a call and talk it through, nothing to lose.

Cheers,
Rich

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1397940289' post='2428943']
One stem each? Could you try and explain a bit more. Feeling like a complete noob ATM so please don't feel as if you're being patronising, I'm firmly on the learning curve.
[/quote]

Sean...

'Stem' = 'Track', as in '48-Track recording'. Think of 'Where does the music [b][i]stem[/i][/b] from..?' Each stem is an instrument; there may be 2 stems for stereo. A drum recording could be kick, snare, hi-hat, 3 x toms, 2 x overheads. That would be a total of 8 stems. A bass could have 2 stems; 1 for DI, another for mic'ed cab. Add a couple of guitars, a lead voice and a couple of backing vocals and we quickly go beyond 16-track recordings.
Of course, a 'live' take, from front of stage, for instance, could well only have 2 stems (stereoR/L...). Naturally one could no longer mix the balance of instruments from so little, without heavy processing.
Does this help..?

Edited April 19, 2014 by Dad3353

[Sean]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1397940892' post='2428953']


Sean...

'Stem' = 'Track', as in '48-Track recording'. Think of 'Where does the music [b][i]stem[/i][/b] from..?' Each stem is an instrument; there may be 2 stems for stereo. A drum recording could be kick, snare, hi-hat, 3 x toms, 2 x overheads. That would be a total of 8 stems. A bass could have 2 stems; 1 for DI, another for mic'ed cab. Add a couple of guitars, a lead voice and a couple of backing vocals and we quickly go beyond 16-track recordings.
Of course, a 'live' take, from front of stage, for instance, could well only have 2 stems (stereoR/L...). Naturally one could no longer mix the balance of instruments from so little, without heavy processing.
Does this help..?
[/quote]

Excellent, thanks. It's like with learning anything new, you always have to learn the language and that's clarified it well :-)

[rk7]

This is a most informative thread.

I'm a noob to the whole recording thing, (did my first recording stint 2 days ago - it was all greek to me!) and I've learned loads just from reading thus far.

I hope this gets sorted for the OP.

Thanks for the sharing of wisdom from those who know about this stuff. BC is a wonderful place!

RK

[ironside1966]

Most projects have parts that start at the middle of the track, baking vocals or guitar solos for example. When you start moving projects around especially to other Daws these parts can get moved or even lose their place entirely and it can be very difficult to remedy. To prevent this, all the tracks should start from the beginning even if it means some tracks have 3 minutes or more of silence before anything happens.
The tracks should also be raw with no EQ, compression or FX if possible.

Providing reference tracks is a good Idea also, songs that have the same production values that you want for your mix, but be realistic the mix can only be has good has the tracks you provide.

[Sean]

Useful stuff there, thanks.

I've had a go at the mixing competition just to try to put into practice what I've learned over the past week or so and also to get some perspective. I've submitted my entry and thoroughly enjoyed every minute of doing it especially sorting out the drums. It's only when you start to do this yourself that you realise how much there is to it and how deep you could go. That NIN site is fascinating demonstrates what can be achieved if you have the skills.

I'm still waiting for the guy to come back to me about the stems so I'll have to wait. It's Easter anyway.