String action

[kedo]

I've just had a new bridge fitted to my Stentor Elysia, and the luthier, who generally made a nice job, left the string action at 10mm on the G string at the end of the fingerboard, and slightly higher on the E. I'm finding this difficult to play at present, although I suppose I am getting used to it. Strangely it's the right hand I find is confused by the unaccustomed string height, although I am not so fluent on fast passages. The Luthier felt that a lower action would cause a bit of string buzz. The strings were previously much lower and I never got string buzz. It's good for slapping but with Helicore strings this doesn't work particularly well, and anyway I mostly play jazz. I'm in a dilemma as to whether I should go back and have the height adjusted, or get used to the present configuration.

[Beer of the Bass]

I gather that wouldn't unusual for orchestral playing, but for jazz with steel strings I'd want it lower. I have had incredulous looks from a general stringed instrument luthier when asking that my string height be no higher than 7mm on the G string - he shook his head and said "but that's a cello setup!" . This is why luthiers who play jazz bass are like gold dust! I'd be inclined to go back and talk about how you'd like it.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Beer of the Bass

[franzbassist]

Surely he should have set the bass up how you like it, not how he thinks it should be. I'd take it back and get him to sort it for you.

[kedo]

Thanks. That's what I thought. The guy is good and spent time at violin making school but he is classical. I've got back to DB in the last 10 years after BG and I'm unsure about these things so bass chat is invaluable. Do you think I should specify about 7mm? Thanks again.

[Beer of the Bass]

Any particular height can feel different depending on how the fingerboard has been shaped, so it's hard to be too prescriptive. Some players go even lower for a steel string jazz setup, some keep it higher.

[zero9]

I concur with walbassist, get your luthier to set it up to your liking. Mine did.

[Clarky]

It seems the default option for luthiers dealing with classical double bass is to set it high (I recall being surprised by teh action on a number of basses in Malcom Healey's workshop). There have been polls on TalkBass and if I recall most have their basses set up 8-10mm on E and 6-8mm on G, some lower still (which requires higher tension strings like Spiro Mittels).

[TheRev]

Take it back and have your luthier lower the action to what you want. Yes, it does mean that f you want a higher action, then that will mean a new bridge, but that should be your decision to make There's always the temptation that you should 'man up' and get used to a higher action, but if it's getting in the way of your playing then what's the point? It's not a competition, it's about making music.

I recently had a new bridge fitted to my carved bass. The action on the G was 6 or 7mm, which was a tad on the low side, even for me, so I told my luthier that the action could ''go up a mm or two''. It came back with a G string action of 11mm!
To be fair, he did say I could bring it back and he'd lower the action free of charge.

[TPJ]

You could ask him to fit adjusters to your bridge which would allow you to change the action yourself.

[The Jaywalker]

The other option - which I would recommend - is to get adjusters fitted as well. If you're still experimenting with what setup you like/string choices etc, then it'll save a trip to the luthier to get more taken off if you want to go lower...and be cheaper than a new bridge if you want to go higher ;-)

[Rabbie]

Just to play devils advocate here. Fast playing and low action may be great for speed and fingertips, but it may sacrifice a bit on volume, tone and the ability to swing.
I play with a rather high action 13-16mm and gut strings. I can't do fast and flash with my setup, but I will be heard on the moon, amp or not. This power actually helps me swing, allows me to slap and leaves me no shortage of gigs. If I don't need to be loud, I can just play softer, the fingers have the scope to control your sound. All I'm saying is that it may come the time when you get a gig which requires these characteristics and having a very low action will preclude you from it.
In short, as very well advised above, at least get yourself some good adjusters which leave you a good bit of room at either end of a "standard" action. Hopefully I have made some sense.

[kedo]

Thanks for all the advice.

I took it back and he reduced the action to 6mm on the G and it really suits me better. I seem to need to feel the ebony under my right hand fingers, otherwise my hand is 'floating'. Much happier. Thanks again.

[stingrayPete1977]

I am looking forward to the Derby double bass day to see how everyone elses basses feel compared to mine, I think I want to go lower too but I am not certain yet hopefully the bass day will provide me with some inspiration

[bassace]

Yup, should be a useful comparison. I recently took the Upton down to 3mm on the G and the others correspondingly low. The fingerboard is so good that it played perfectly without any buzzes. Perhaps a BGist would enjoy being able to get round the board but to me, as a DB player for most of my adult life, it just felt alien. I'm happy on 7mm for a compromise between playability and attack.

I'm playing at a London restaurant tomorrow where I'm required to play the house bass. Hm, should be interesting.

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1406228036' post='2509615']
Just to play devils advocate here. Fast playing and low action may be great for speed and fingertips, but it may sacrifice a bit on volume, tone and the ability to swing.
I play with a rather high action 13-16mm and gut strings. I can't do fast and flash with my setup, but I will be heard on the moon, amp or not. This power actually helps me swing, allows me to slap and leaves me no shortage of gigs. If I don't need to be loud, I can just play softer, the fingers have the scope to control your sound. All I'm saying is that it may come the time when you get a gig which requires these characteristics and having a very low action will preclude you from it.
In short, as very well advised above, at least get yourself some good adjusters which leave you a good bit of room at either end of a "standard" action. Hopefully I have made some sense.
[/quote]

Yeah, adjusters are the way. Means you can go from high to low depending on string preferences and what you, and your bass, end up liking best.

However, it's nowhere near as simple as not being able to get certain sounds with a lower action. That's just just plain wrong. Ray Brown had his bass set to about 5mm at times - and still played the way he always did. In fact, when anyone tried to pull the "gut strings and high action" stuff with him he'd get really angry about it. Plenty of anecdotes on the 'net. Like almost all the guys from that era, he maintained that if that was better, they'd still be playing that way.
I've heard bassists at polar opposite ends of the sonic scale, eg Arild Andersen and a US Grenadier acolyte (who assured me with pride that his action was "much higher") play my bass and get "their" sound with no difficulty. My action is 4mm on the g-side up to about 9mm on the e. Turns out it's almost identical to Arild's setup - and no-one can accuse him of having a small or weak tone! String height doesn't affect tone as much as volume. There's usually a fairly narrow window of a few mm where the tonal differences, sustain, brilliance etc are quite stark. A good sound is full and rich - "big" if you will, regardless of how loud it is. If you don't feel you need to play unamplified, then the acoustic volume of your bass is a non-issue. Concentrate on the sound and tone! If it's guts and a higher action which gets you there; fair enough - but it's absolutely possible to do the old school thing with a modern setup.
Here's a wee personal anecdote. The above-mentioned Grenadier acolyte used my bass on a gig. He played every note as hard as he possibly could, killing the sound dead by choking the natural vibration of the instrument. He would ask the leader before each tune what the vibe was and adjust amp volume accordingly...In other words, he'd taken the high-action acoustic concept so far that he had no control over his sound and, ironically, was totally reliant on the amp.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1407170134' post='2518020']
I've heard bassists at polar opposite ends of the sonic scale, eg Arild Andersen and a US Grenadier acolyte (who assured me with pride that his action was "much higher") play my bass and get "their" sound with no difficulty. My action is 4mm on the g-side up to about 9mm on the e. Turns out it's almost identical to Arild's setup - and no-one can accuse him of having a small or weak tone! String height doesn't affect tone as much as volume.
[/quote]

That's definitely on the low side of things, but to be quite honest when I've heard you play I wouldn't have guessed it from your tone. It's certainly not that "exaggerated growl and lots of amp" kind of sound that was fashionable in the 70s. I've had mine a little below 6mm on the G when I had Spiro Mittels on, but for whatever reason I like my current Spiro Weichs a little higher at 8-10.5mm.

[Rabbie]

I slap 70% of the time and I play guts. Even when playing pizz I am used to my high action. I could not slap and play with the physicality I like with a 5mm action: it would actually be physically impossible with my size of fingers to get under the strings and pull them up to produce the slap. Volume is also important to me and a low action does sacrifice it. Instrument setup is subjective, I am only offering my experience politely. I am truly sorry if that would have made Ray Brown angry, but I think I will survive the disappointment.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Rabbie

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1407194064' post='2518336']
I slap 70% of the time and I play guts. Even when playing pizz I am used to my high action. I could not slap and play with the physicality I like with a 5mm action: it would actually be physically impossible with my size of fingers to get under the strings and pull them up to produce the slap. Volume is also important to me and a low action does sacrifice it. Instrument setup is subjective, I am only offering my experience politely. I am truly sorry if that would have made Ray Brown angry, but I think I will survive the disappointment.
[/quote]
Yeah, exactly. If you play slap then you have no option but to go higher; and guts can need way more room to vibrate depending on the guage. I appreciate you're only offering your own subjective setup preference and experience - i got that from your post - I was just picking up on a couple of things: the "fast and flash" quip (I find it strange that we bassists can be accused of that all too readily when all we're doing is playing 8th note lines like the rest of the band; instead of being expected to rumble around like it's still 1950! - which is cool, if that's your thing! ); and the myth that the "ability to swing" is somehow related to a higher action. A "modern", even lower action setup is way more versatile than you seemed to be suggesting - and won't limit you in any way other than not being able to slap. As you said; fingers have the scope to control the sound
I used guts/Velvets with (obv) a higher action for quite a while and it was a great sound - just not versatile enough for my own personal artistic tastes. If I had multiple basses i'd probably still keep one setup like that for the odd real old-school gig.

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1407191082' post='2518314']
That's definitely on the low side of things, but to be quite honest when I've heard you play I wouldn't have guessed it from your tone. It's certainly not that "exaggerated growl and lots of amp" kind of sound that was fashionable in the 70s. I've had mine a little below 6mm on the G when I had Spiro Mittels on, but for whatever reason I like my current Spiro Weichs a little higher at 8-10.5mm.
[/quote]
Yeah, Mittels tend to tighten up quite a bit as the action goes up; but the Weichs still sing. I think it's easier to change the action to alter the tone/feel with the weichs too - like from sustained ECM to a slightly shorter, bouncier Ray Brown vibe. Some basses like the freer vibration from the lighter tension as well, which can be a nice surprise.

[Rabbie]

Hi Jaywalker, I agree with you. 1950s is indeed my thing. The speed and dexterity debate is annoying as too many times players are accused of virtuosism, rather than being praised by other somewhat jealous players who cannae do it (like me: I cannae do it, but I'm not jealous at least). And as you rightly say, swing can be swung in many ways. The way I have been used to play, I sound terrible with low action, just can't adjust to it. Ultimately, every player studies thousands of hours in the hope of getting "their own sound". I have found mine, I am happy with it and I shall stick to it. Not saying it's great, but it's mine (like my brain, pretty thick, but mine). However I appreciate, and sometimes love, all kinds of DB players. It's not about who's best, it's about serving your preferred music, and there's so much music that we are all very much needed. If everyone played like one another, we'd be all fighting for the same gig and it would not be pretty (but the high action guys would probably win - joking!)

[The Jaywalker]

Yeah, the dexterity debate is a pita to be sure ;-) Guts is best for the '50's gut vibe (go figure!). There's a great interview where Carlos Henriquez calls out the guys who are trying to do it on high action steel strings; something like "if you wanna do it, you gotta do it!"