Preamp question

[Painy]

Hi all, hoping for some advice as despite playing for nearly 20 years I've never really dabbled in the electronics side of things.
My current main gigging bass is a Cort A6 which is great to play and looks good but I'm not loving the Bartolini Mk1 preamp. Treble and mids are fine but the bass control, while very responsive, just doesn't give me the full sounding low end I get from my Warwick Corvette. I believe the Warwick's bass control is centred at around 45hz. Not sure about the Cort but I'd guess it's probably more around the 85hz mark.
Anyway, as I'm currently more skint than a very skint person and the Aguilar OBP-3 I was watching on eBay is spiralling out of my price range, I've been looking in desperation at a very cheap unit on there (just £5 from China!) which is centred on the same frequencies as the OBP-3 (40hz, 400hz & 4kHz) albeit at +/- 12dB rather than +/-16dB.
So, opinions please on whether the cheap unit is worth a try or likely to be complete garbage?

[badboy1984]

I personally would just leave it ........

I play and own 2 warwick before. They are both warwick corvette. 1 is 4 string and the other one is 5 string. Both were passive originally but I made change so they both become active.

The 4 string was EMG active jazz and 2 band John East and the 5 string was Bartonlini jazz and 3 vand John East pre.

Both sounding different but also can sound very deep on the low end which I can't replicate the same tone on a different bass.

I personally think the wood on the warwick bass gives you the tone.

[discreet]

Generally I've found that if something looks too good to be true, then it is. And you get what you pay for.
Maybe an outboard solution (i.e. preamp pedal) would be better value? Then if you don't like, you can move it on.

[stingrayPete1977]

We cant hear down to 45Hz and chances are your amp is shelved long before? Genz heads are shelved at 80Hz for example, putting the LF switch in allows it to drop to around 38Hz but then you still need a good cab to handle that.

[lukeward2004]

Comparing preamps is one thing, but trying to get that Warwick sound out of a Cort is like trying to get your Volkwagen Golf GTI to perform like a BMW M3 in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with Cort and certainly not meaning to sound harsh, but if you want your bass to sound like a warwick, you need to own a warwick. This is why I sold off a Vigier Passion Series 3, Bacchus Jazz, an MTD somethingorother bass and loads of other fender esque jazz basses - I wanted a warwick, and now ive got 3 that serve me very well.

[discreet]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1406223543' post='2509545']
We cant hear down to 45Hz...
[/quote]

I can hear down to 30Hz according to this audio sweep - humans generally can't hear below 20Hz, though.

[url="http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php"]http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php[/url]

You'll need proper monitors to hear the lowest frequencies - and watch your volume, it gets loud!

[margusalviste]

The question is not just about the center point but also the Q.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1406223543' post='2509545']
Genz heads are shelved at 80Hz for example..
[/quote]

.0 Genz models had that 80Hz cutoff point, but the later .2 models had a lower cutoff around 30Hz IIRC

[stingrayPete1977]

They are only shelved at 80 if you don't engage the LF, it caused arguments about the shuttle 9.0 being deeper than the 6.0 because people read that the 9.0 goes to 37hz, they were actually the same.

[HowieBass]

Apparently this is the response for the Bartolini Mk1 so the bass looks to be centred around 25Hz - the difference you're hearing is going to be a combination of pickup response, preamp design and possibly also the body and neck construction.

[Painy]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1406293238' post='2510270']

Apparently this is the response for the Bartolini Mk1 so the bass looks to be centred around 25Hz - the difference you're hearing is going to be a combination of pickup response, preamp design and possibly also the body and neck construction.
[/quote]

That's interesting. So could it actually be that the bass is centred so low that most of the boosted signal is actually out of audible range hence the lack of perceived low end?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1406279535' post='2510025']


I can hear down to 30Hz according to this audio sweep - humans generally can't hear below 20Hz, though.

[url="http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php"]http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php[/url]

You'll need proper monitors to hear the lowest frequencies - and watch your volume, it gets loud!
[/quote]
That's great in isolation but in reality and in a band mix all it's doing is sucking up wattage.

[discreet]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1406308883' post='2510519']
That's great in isolation but in reality and in a band mix all it's doing is sucking up wattage.
[/quote]

Yes, and I'd never EQ that low. But YOU said we can't hear down to 45Hz and we can. So nyah! Boo! Thpp!

[stingrayPete1977]

Can you hear anything useable like a melody though, we can hear quite high frequencies but Florence and the machine have proven those to be fairly useless or worth hearing too

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1406279535' post='2510025']
I can hear down to 30Hz according to this audio sweep - humans generally can't hear below 20Hz, though.

[url="http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php"]http://www.audiochec...ncychecklow.php[/url]

You'll need proper monitors to hear the lowest frequencies - and watch your volume, it gets loud!
[/quote]

I can hear down to 20Hz?
Well I can hear a rumble, But that's mainly as I'm wearing headphones.

[skej21]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1406308883' post='2510519']

That's great in isolation but in reality and in a band mix all it's doing is sucking up wattage.
[/quote]

Sorry man but this just doesn't make sense.

You own 3 five strings and you're saying you can't hear below 45hz in a mix? The frequency of a bottom E on a 4 string bass (if tuned correctly) is 41hz. The low B on a 5/6 string bass (if tuned correctly) rings out at 30.868hz (let's say 31hz for ease), so you're essentially saying that your low B string is totally redundant in a mix. If that's the case, why did you bother buying 3 five strings basses if you can't hear below an F (approx 45hz) in a mix...

[HowieBass]

I thought we felt as much as heard low frequencies when it gets loud? http://gapersblock.com/transmission/2010/07/22/beyond_vibrations_the_deaf_musical_experience/

@Painy - it might well be that the bass boost is adding to frequencies that don't contribute greatly to the perceived volume levels (I think that filter is centred on the sub-bass region where your rig will struggle to amplify it well) and you've got a bit of a hole in the bass frequencies (though where the bass and mids cross on that graph is about 150Hz which is about D3, the 12th fret on the D string so it ain't that 'low'). However, if you've a chance to boost in the 100 to 300Hz region (via an EQ pedal or amp) then that might help...

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1406617383' post='2512956']


Sorry man but this just doesn't make sense.

You own 3 five strings and you're saying you can't hear below 45hz in a mix? The frequency of a bottom E on a 4 string bass (if tuned correctly) is 41hz. The low B on a 5/6 string bass (if tuned correctly) rings out at 30.868hz (let's say 31hz for ease), so you're essentially saying that your low B string is totally redundant in a mix. If that's the case, why did you bother buying 3 five strings basses if you can't hear below an F (approx 45hz) in a mix...
[/quote]
Someone who knows more about this should be able to explain but it doesn't work at all how you are understanding it, musical notes are more dimensional than that, the Genz amp cuts below 80hz for example unless you engage LF boost, but trust me it still produces sounds when you play a low B, what you are left with is the parts we hear as clear and defined rather than a farty rumble.

Can anyone help explain it for me, I presume it involves the fundamental frequency and it's under tones?

[skej21]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1406620728' post='2512980']

Someone who knows more about this should be able to explain but it doesn't work at all how you are understanding it, musical notes are more dimensional than that, the Genz amp cuts below 80hz for example unless you engage LF boost, but trust me it still produces sounds when you play a low B, what you are left with is the parts we hear as clear and defined rather than a farty rumble.

Can anyone help explain it for me, I presume it involves the fundamental frequency and it's under tones?
[/quote]

I understand the scientific aspects of what we are discussing fine thanks. However, some members on here may not have had the opportunity to gather this knowledge through experience/education and rely on this forum for information. What you said was 'we can't hear down to 45hz' which is factually incorrect.

[Roland Rock]

It's correct that the fundamental frequencies of the E and B strings are at those frequencies, but the majority of what we actually hear when playing each note is the harmonics/overtones, which have frequencies well above the fundamental.

I ordered a Barefaced '69er cab, but while I was waiting for it to arrive, I also bought a five string bass. Suddenly I started to worry, because the cab rolls off at 40Hz and I was concerned that I wouldn't be able to hear the low B. Alex assured me that it would be fine, and sure enough, the B rang out clear as a bell. What I was getting with the '69er was the B's overtones, but not the fundamental.

When it gets down to 40hz or below, it starts to blur the line between 'hearing' and 'feeling' the fundamental. That low 'feel' is great in the studio and live with certain genres. However, if you are just using your amp as a stage monitor, as many do, too much low frequency can suck power, stress speakers and flood the stage with rumble.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Roland Rock

[stingrayPete1977]

See I knew some one would explain it better, thanks Roland

Even with the LF boost the Genz amps cut at about 37hz

By can't hear I mean musically, great if you can hear/feel some vibrations when sat in isolation with head phones on that's no use to us at a gig.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1406621830' post='2512998']


I understand the scientific aspects of what we are discussing fine thanks. However, some members on here may not have had the opportunity to gather this knowledge through experience/education and rely on this forum for information. What you said was 'we can't hear down to 45hz' which is factually incorrect.
[/quote]
the nonsense you just posted about the fives being pointless unless you amplify those frequencies will confuse people more What amps have you got then and what are the cut off frequencies set at?

Edited July 29, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[Painy]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1406619153' post='2512972']

@Painy - it might well be that the bass boost is adding to frequencies that don't contribute greatly to the perceived volume levels (I think that filter is centred on the sub-bass region where your rig will struggle to amplify it well) and you've got a bit of a hole in the bass frequencies (though where the bass and mids cross on that graph is about 150Hz which is about D3, the 12th fret on the D string so it ain't that 'low'). However, if you've a chance to boost in the 100 to 300Hz region (via an EQ pedal or amp) then that might help...
[/quote]

Thanks, that's kinda what I've been doing to compensate (my amp has 3 band rotary and 9 band graphic eq) and it certainly gets me 90% of the way but the amount of boost I'm having to use on those frequencies means the onboard limiter is going into overdrive to control it. I'd rather get the signal how I want it at the input stage where I can tame it by setting the input gain control. I much prefer as few pedals as possible in the signal chain as I do find they take something away from the tone themselves (just a true bypass tuner for me) hence I was looking at a replacement pre.
I'm now looking at preamp in the not quite so cheap and nasty but still affordable price range (Tone Monster) which has some pretty good reviews online.

[HowieBass]

I don't know what range of frequencies are triggering the onboard limiter in your amp (I think they're most susceptible to lows) and I know this sounds counterintuitive but you might actually enjoy a better 'bass' sound if you back off the bass tone control on your Cort - the Bartolini preamp might be boosting where you don't need it?

[Painy]

Certainly worth a try. I had been thinking about starting from scratch with everything flat on the bass and the amp and take it from there anyway so I'll give it a go before messing around with the electrics.