Dad3353 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408645760' post='2532223']...On this side of the pond I doubt that one in ten bass players is in the PA.[/quote] [size=4] ... or less still..![/size] [size=4]Nevertheless, even in pubs/clubs, I've used Fender Bassman 2 x 15 (vertical cones...), Ampeg 4 x 10 and HH 'Giggles' 2 x 15 (horizontal cones...) * and I'm pretty sure everyone at the gigs heard the bass well enough. In a lab, there's certainly truth there, but in 'real life', in a room full of people, it's not a factor I've ever noticed.[/size] [size=4]Disclaimer... I'm a drummer with old cloth ears. This could explain a lot... [/size] [size=4] [/size][size=4]* No, not all at once, you fool; on separate occasions..! [/size] Edited August 21, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 If I have a 4x10 that is perfectly square (with the port on the back) and I was able to prop it up on one corner, in a diamond shape, what happens with the dispersion? And, not taking all the mucking about into account, would it be preferable to being sat flat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 [quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1408646062' post='2532224'] Really? We're very lucky over here! In my current band I've only ever done like three gigs where I wasn't through the PA.[/quote]In the US it's SOP that the band provides the PA. The worse the job pays the more likely that you have to provide the sound. Since most bands don't want to pay for or carry any more gear than they have to the average PA is a powered mixer and a couple of cheap boxes on sticks, hardly something you'd run your bass through. The same applies to sound engineers, if you want one you'd better bring one with you. Consequently most bands mix from the stage. Maybe one in ten venues has PA, and those are mainly larger clubs in major metropolitan areas. Outside of cities you'll be lucky to find one in a hundred clubs that has PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I always wondered about the reason for the vertical stacking of speaker cabs you see at big gigs, now I know (I think)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 [quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1408650030' post='2532285'] I always wondered about the reason for the vertical stacking of speaker cabs you see at big gigs, now I know (I think)... [/quote] I'm sure Bill will have a pick of one the best (early) examples of this by 'The GD'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 [quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1408626296' post='2531952'] This might be a ridiculous question, but if you filled a cab with like 32 tweeters would you get good low end response with better dispersion on the highs? [/quote] and your name may be Phil Jones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1408647172' post='2532241'] If I have a 4x10 that is perfectly square (with the port on the back) and I was able to prop it up on one corner, in a diamond shape, what happens with the dispersion? And, not taking all the mucking about into account, would it be preferable to being sat flat? [/quote] I'd like to think that the single 10 would give a better dispersion, but the 2 even further apart may play about with that theory. Besides, your amp would slide off the top, or was you planning on using it as the prop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 [quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1408650030' post='2532285'] I always wondered about the reason for the vertical stacking of speaker cabs you see at big gigs, now I know (I think)... [/quote]Read this (and the subsequent chapters). http://www.gtaust.com/filter/05/07.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408661579' post='2532408'] Read this (and the subsequent chapters). [url="http://www.gtaust.com/filter/05/07.shtml"]http://www.gtaust.co...ter/05/07.shtml[/url] [/quote] An excellent read; thanks for sharing. [size=4][sharedmedia=core:attachments:167485][/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1408663270' post='2532423'] An excellent read; thanks for sharing. [/quote] Fascinating stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408661579' post='2532408'] Read this (and the subsequent chapters). [url="http://www.gtaust.com/filter/05/07.shtml"]http://www.gtaust.co...ter/05/07.shtml[/url] [/quote] Ahh, that genuinely is fascinating... so that's why guitarists can be annoyingly loud with 'small' amps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Sorry to spoil the party but dispersion isn't the only factor affected by cone diameter. First of all you can't vary cone size without changing either its mass or cone thickness both of which will alter the sound it produces. A heavier cone will resonate at a lower frequency and ultimately reproduce lower frequencies as a result, all other things being equal. It will also take more energy to accelerate and decelerate, changing its ability to track high frequencies and its transient behaviour. It's also true that speakers with high surface areas tend to be more efficient, all other things being equal. Even the dispersion issue isn't quite as clearcut as presented. This assumes the cone moves as a piston, and it won't. In practice they all flex to a greater or lesser degree so that more high frequency sound is radiated from the centre of the cone and for most speakers the effective radiating area reduces with frequency. As a result it is possible for a single 15" speaker both to produce appreciable output at the upper frequencies of a bass and to have acceptable radiation of those frequencies. As in the Barefaced compact. You'll have noticed the repeat of 'all other things being equal' and of course they won't be. There are lots of variables other than cone diameter and all have an effect on the sound the final design will make. What Bill is saying is that there isn't a characteristic 'sound' made by a 15 or a 10 which is completely right, but it is easier to make a 15 go louder and deeper than a 10 and much harder to get a decent top end out of a large speaker. The 'sound' depends upon a lot of factors not just cone size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1408717314' post='2532911'] Sorry to spoil the party but dispersion isn't the only factor affected by cone diameter. First of all you can't vary cone size without changing either its mass or cone thickness both of which will alter the sound it produces. [/quote]If you look at the Mms specs for various drivers you'll see that they have little to no relationship to driver size. For instance, the LAB 12 is 146g, the Sigma Pro 18 is 130g. By the same token Fs and cone size are far from directly related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1408647578' post='2532253'] In the US it's SOP that the band provides the PA. The worse the job pays the more likely that you have to provide the sound. Since most bands don't want to pay for or carry any more gear than they have to the average PA is a powered mixer and a couple of cheap boxes on sticks, hardly something you'd run your bass through. The same applies to sound engineers, if you want one you'd better bring one with you. Consequently most bands mix from the stage. Maybe one in ten venues has PA, and those are mainly larger clubs in major metropolitan areas. Outside of cities you'll be lucky to find one in a hundred clubs that has PA. [/quote]In my experience it is the same in the UK Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Sorry but that isn't [size=4]right[/size] at all, you'll have noticed that I said all other things being equal, as you say the laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion. The resonant frequency is inversely proportional to the square root of Mms [size=2][/size] which I'm sure you know. For the non technical the resonant frequency is determined by the mass and the compliance of the speaker. Compliance is the floppiness of the cone support, The bendiness of the corrugated spider and the cone surround combined. For the examples Bill gave the compliance and the mass are both different. That's exactly why I wanted to make the point about it being a little more complex than 'the only difference is dispersion'. You can tune a small speaker lower by making a heavier (and usually stiffer as a result) cone or by raising the floppiness, these in turn affect other speaker parameters. I could give plenty of examples of speakers where the large cones are heavier but I don't think people will have too many difficulties in seeing that an 18" cone will usually be heavier than a 6" cone for example. Edited August 23, 2014 by Phil Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1408779601' post='2533353'] In my experience it is the same in the UK Bill. [/quote]I'd imagine you mainly have PA in the inner cities where it's a big enough hassle even bringing in amps in your car, let alone a lorry full of PA. Edited August 23, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1408779601' post='2533353'] In my experience it is the same in the UK Bill. [/quote] You haven't been to Aberdeen then. Granted there's a definite split between cover/tribute bands and original bands - cover bands will nearly always have their own PA so they can play in any pub they like, especially ones which are not specifically music pubs whereas the venues which tend to put on original music have PA, sound engineers, house backline - The Moorings, Cafe Drummond, The Tunnels, and some have PA and sound guys but no house kit - Slains Castle, The Lemon Tree and Cellar 35 spring to mind. I suspect that for the size of the place, we're pretty spoiled up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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