pfretrock Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I get petitions in my mailbox almost every day. Don't usually pass them on but this one I will. It's equally important as the three R's and PE. [url="https://www.change.org/p/nicky-morgan-deliver-the-government-s-promise-to-give-every-child-opportunity-to-learn-an-instrument"]https://www.change.o...n-an-instrument[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerley Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Don't agree. I like music/playing music but it is not essential. More essential to education is focusing on life skills and topics such as finance, realistic career based topics etc,. that everyone needs to know and be better armed for in life after school. Music is very much extra curricular to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Thanks, pfretrock - I will certainly be signing this. Sorry, Kerley, but your view of education is both impoverished and naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Steve Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 My other half teaches and her school do this and every year they buy expensive instruments (clarinets last year and flutes this) which the children proceed to wreck and never touch again. It's a laudable aim for certain but seems to be a bit of a waste of money in practise. Have to agree that other life skills would be better targeted at much less cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='kerley' timestamp='1410337180' post='2548189'] Don't agree. I like music/playing music but it is not essential. More essential to education is focusing on life skills and topics such as finance, realistic career based topics etc,. that everyone needs to know and be better armed for in life after school. Music is very much extra curricular to me. [/quote] I'd agree insofar that music is not absolutely essential to survival, but I'd argue that it's still important. If it were an either/or question where children were forced to choose between essential life skills and music, I could understand the view that music could wait. But we're in the fortunate position that schools can provide both, at least to some extent, and it's important to give children the option of a creative outlet, because a lot of them will become frustrated and unhappy without it, especially if their families cannot/will not encourage them in that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Nah I dont agree either. I dont think it should be made manditory. It is a great skill to have, but I think kids should be concentrating on life skills & standard education. An extra curricular subject is fine but having to learn an instrument would be in my mind a bad idea. For instance I showed no interest at all at school about learning an instrument (I couldnt even play a triangle....no joke I failed at the triangle) but after I left school I started considering my love for music & the possibility of creating it for myself. If I'd been made to learn an instrument at school, I doubt I'd have enjoyed it very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='fumps' timestamp='1410339709' post='2548218'] If I'd been made to learn an instrument at school, I doubt I'd have enjoyed it very much. [/quote] I hate to split hairs, but the petition doesn't say anything about making it mandatory - the emphasis is on making sure every child has the opportunity, if they want it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Quite. And nobody is talking about music education instead of core subjects such as Maths and Literacy - it is not either or. And what exactly are these mysterious 'life skills' that keep being mentioned here? Is it stuff like how to open a bank account or how to use Microsoft Office? Is that really all there is to education? What a dreary prospect. BTW I would include the human voice as a musical instrument - and that doesn't cost anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odysseus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Giving kids the opportunity would be a good thing, but like someone said above - many come to music after the school years - it tends to be in the teens when kids take to a particular band/style/genre and wish to get involved. Having been a teacher in some grim areas, I know well that if you give certain kids an instrument to take home, it will be on sale to fund beer and fags down at the local car boot sale come Sunday morning. Probably not the most popular notion, but that's life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I read recently that music education improves a lot of other skills. It shouldn't be mandatory, but it should definitely be free and available to any child. [url="http://www.classicfm.com/music-news/latest-news/classical-music-social-skills/"]http://www.classicfm.com/music-news/latest-news/classical-music-social-skills/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzodog Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I think its a great idea. Learning an instrument also teaches discipline and gives a sense of achievement which are great life skills to have. My daughter is 8 today and she asked for a ukulele. i am looking forward to learning it with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Universal opportunity is fine and I welcome it but I would hate to see it wasted by forcing kids who don't give a toss either way into learning an instrument. Apart from playing recorder at primary school, I had opportunities and didn't take them. I'm sure I had the chance to play cello but humphing it around seemed like too much hard work. Then I retreated into my shell almost completely at secondary school for a variety of reasons and saw music classes in 1st and 2nd year as a chore and paid little or no attention whatsoever. Apart from a half-assed, ultimately abortive attempt to learn guitar in early adulthood, I didn't do anything until I seriously started playing bass (practising, being in bands) at the grand old age of 33. I do regret not getting going sooner (bloody young whiz-kids running rings around me, grr), but such is life. Make the most of now and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfretrock Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1410339016' post='2548206'] My other half teaches and her school do this and every year they buy expensive instruments (clarinets last year and flutes this) which the children proceed to wreck and never touch again. [/quote] Now't wrong with Recorders. Cheap, easy to play simple tunes and challenging on difficult pieces. Or maybe a few indestructable Squire Mustangs! Or are those kids really rough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Squier Mustangs are ace - my 11 year old has one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1410342257' post='2548254'] Universal opportunity is fine and I welcome it but I would hate to see it wasted by forcing kids who don't give a toss either way into learning an instrument. [/quote] Most kids don't give a toss about mathematics either, and many will never use most of their school maths ever again in adult life, [size=3]but who here would argue that schools shouldn't expose kids to mathematical concepts and thinking?[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1410337726' post='2548193'] Sorry, Kerley, but your view of education is both impoverished and naive. [/quote] Sorry Grammefriday, but your apparent assumption that education is the sole responsibility of schools is both impoverished and naive. Don't let your schooling interfere with your education Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 No, I do not assume this - rather the contrary, in fact. I think parents, not schools, should have primary responsibility for teaching 'life skills', which I take to be everything from tying shoelaces to saying thank you to respecting cultural differences. The main function of schools should not be to train kids for the world of work by teaching them 'skills' - it is naive to think that this will translate into jobs, especially good jobs - the class system in this country will ensure that the privileged will keep themselves at the top of the heap. And the modern world is moving so fast that whatever skills we teach them will probably be obsolete by the time they enter the job market anyway. Beyond making sure that kids have adequate literacy and numeracy skills, what schools should be doing is presenting students with a sense of possibility, and inculcating in them an excitement about learning and discovering things. This is the best preparation for adult life. Teach a person to fish, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Looking at some posts we need to concentrate on spelling a bit more Though saying that, where would I be without my laptop auto-correcting stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 My argument is against a narrowly utilitarian view of education, which I think is both impoverished and naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 How can anyone, especially musicians, pick a fight about the concept of providing access to musical instruments and musical education whilst at school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Not sure how the quality of this thread is improved by the name-calling. I rather like it when people have their own opinions ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1410344554' post='2548294'] How can anyone, especially musicians, pick a fight about the concept of providing access to musical instruments and musical education whilst at school? [/quote] Beats me! Depressing, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 You have to remember, one of the few industries (that's what music is), that's carried on making money during this recession is entertainment and the music business in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1410344650' post='2548299'] Not sure how the quality of this thread is improved by the name-calling. I rather like it when people have their own opinions ... [/quote] There are no ad hominem attacks going on here as far as I can see - the criticisms are being levelled at ideas, not people. I was not offended by flyfisher's post - on the contrary, I'm enjoying the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerley Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 [quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1410342654' post='2548264'] Most kids don't give a toss about mathematics either, and many will never use most of their school maths ever again in adult life, [size=3]but who here would argue that schools shouldn't expose kids to mathematical concepts and thinking?[/size] [/quote] I would. Once you are past the basics of a subject the goal is solely to be tested on the subject to then get a method of scoring children against each other. While that approach probably isn't going to change why not learn and get tested on subjects that you will actually use in your adult life (mortgages/finance, politics/councils etc,.) If you wish to go further into maths, physics etc,. because it will lead to a chosen career then do that at A level and Degree levely. I spent a good amount of my time learning matrices, differentiation, integration and so on and have never come close to using it or even needing to know it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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