IzzyT2807 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 the drummer in my band is definable slightly ahead of the beat (to my own taste) I totally get the whole feel thing... problem is everyone has their own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 [quote name='IzzyT2807' timestamp='1411993758' post='2564595'] I totally get the whole feel thing... problem is everyone has their own [/quote] Which is one of the reasons some rhythm sections work better than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toneknob Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Here's a simple but effective demo from a drummer (he's exaggerating to emphasis the effect) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlcSuJlOwJ0 My take is that you have metronomic time, and if everyone sticks to this then you're on the beat. Stay in time but play either side of metronomic time, then you're playing ahead or behind the beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 [quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1411998203' post='2564671'] Here's a simple but effective demo from a drummer (he's exaggerating to emphasis the effect) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlcSuJlOwJ0[/media] My take is that you have metronomic time, and if everyone sticks to this then you're on the beat. Stay in time but play either side of metronomic time, then you're playing ahead or behind the beat. [/quote] A nice illustration; I'm not sure I'd totally agree with your concluding line, however. It's not the whole rhythm ahead or behind, it's the accents and syncopation that 'push' or 'pull'. If the whole lot is early or late, it's simply out of time, that's all, but if (as in the ride rhythm in the video...) there is a slight holding-back or anticipation of the 'middle' stroke, that's enough to 'pull' or 'push'. Applied to the bass, it would be the 'grace' notes that give this effect, not the principle root/5th fundamental notes. Just my tuppence-worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1411999301' post='2564690'] A nice illustration; I'm not sure I'd totally agree with your concluding line, however. It's not the whole rhythm ahead or behind, it's the accents and syncopation that 'push' or 'pull'. If the whole lot is early or late, it's simply out of time, that's all, but if (as in the ride rhythm in the video...) there is a slight holding-back or anticipation of the 'middle' stroke, that's enough to 'pull' or 'push'. Applied to the bass, it would be the 'grace' notes that give this effect, not the principle root/5th fundamental notes. Just my tuppence-worth. [/quote] I think someone summed it up well upthread. One member of the band is tasked with keeping time. Usually the drummer thinks it's him, often it's the bass player. In reality there's lots of interplay thy happens. Somewere within the bar, there has to be a beat. Could be the hihat, bass drum, ride or maybe the bass player whacking out 8ths. So long as the song doesn't unintentionally speed up or slow down then it remains in time. Edited September 29, 2014 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (as a drummer) In my folk band, the bassist dictates the "feel" and I just stick with him. It's not something we consciously decided to do, but it works very well. Some songs are lazy, laid back and "on the back of the beat" where as some songs are pretty frantic and constantly in front of the beat. There are a couple of songs which I would describe as "dead on the beat" but obviously I'm not a virtuoso or a machine! In my reggae band I just try to do my best to ignore the rhythm of what everyone else is doing. It's a bit of a nightmare. Whenever the bassist is on the back, the rhythm guitarist is on the front, and vice verse. I don't know how they manage this but they've been doing it for 15 years. I'm a relative newcomer so I just play loud and hope they're playing to my "groove". It makes for some interesting rhythmic combinations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFry Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Here's a man who should know talking about it at 11:50 ; [media]http://youtu.be/qaa1axJ63Qg[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1411999301' post='2564690'] A nice illustration; I'm not sure I'd totally agree with your concluding line, however. It's not the whole rhythm ahead or behind, it's the accents and syncopation that 'push' or 'pull'. If the whole lot is early or late, it's simply out of time, that's all, but if (as in the ride rhythm in the video...) there is a slight holding-back or anticipation of the 'middle' stroke, that's enough to 'pull' or 'push'. Applied to the bass, it would be the 'grace' notes that give this effect, not the principle root/5th fundamental notes. Just my tuppence-worth. [/quote] I think that's absolutely bang on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 What I find amazing is that Ive never seen this topic come up before, whilst we have enjoyably discussed the pros and cons of just about everything else that doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Yeah it's funny it's not discussed more. Frequently killing time at uni I read their entire back catalogue of 'modern drummer', and they talked about this endlessly. Carol Kaye talks about it on her website, saying Ray Brown I think it was is always slightly ahead when playing walking basslines and I heard the isolated bass part for 'give it away' and Flea is definitely ahead, which I was surprised about. JR Robinson the session drummer says he's hired for his kick drum landing exactly square on one, and I once had a conversation with a guy who worked for Atlantic in the 60s who insisted on 2 and 4 being late. When people talk about 'feel' I think it's this that they are thinking of, which when coupled with articulation and dynamics are what truly put meaning behind the expression 'it's all in the fingers'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 This is the best example of playing behind the beat I can find. I play in a blues band and I always give this album to drummers who are new to blues. Many have never heard of the concept of playing behind the beat. They think I'm talking 'Crazeee tok'. http://youtu.be/E7rv8pu-0z0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 The Muddy Waters clip is an example of how sloppy timing can become a feature. Who can tell who is actually 'right'. It's a mess, but it has a style and that is what makes it good. Timing wise, if you looked at that on a sequencer and tried to make sense of it you'd fail miserably. Luckily, most music is much tighter (but better?? depends) The worse music I've heard is that played by military bands trying to be 'cool'. I've got one lovely example. One track is the Police Academy March, and it sounds really great and tight, just like the movie version. However, another track is Michael Jackson's Thriller, and their amazing locked in sense of rhythm wrecks it completely. They can't swing, because it's just not how they play. Excellent technical musicians. Every crotchet is a crotchet, exactly, and two quavers are exactly the same as one crotchet, but it sucks musically. I've been working on a classical music project today with a concert pianist who just discovered Cubase. I've had to stop him looking at the screen and micro shifting each note to a grid line. He plays to a click, and is horrified to see how his timing is in his words, dreadful. It took a while to explain that real people do play before and after the beat divider. I convinced him to only use that screen when he HEARS a mistake, and real people don't have a metronome. For me, the Muddy Waters is too loose, and the military band too tight - but preference is individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 [quote name='paulears' timestamp='1412025543' post='2565074']... I've been working on a classical music project today with a concert pianist who just discovered Cubase. I've had to stop him looking at the screen and micro shifting each note to a grid line. He plays to a click, and is horrified to see how his timing is in his words, dreadful. It took a while to explain that real people do play before and after the beat divider. I convinced him to only use that screen when he HEARS a mistake, and real people don't have a metronome. For me, the Muddy Waters is too loose, and the military band too tight - but preference is individual. [/quote] +1 to all of this. Most especially in classical music, the metronome is the enemy..! [i]Everything [/i]on the click sounds atrocious. Some styles of modern music depend on mechanical precision, but not that many, really. The 'swing' or 'bounce' comes from the very small imperfections which render the music's perfection. Ahead, behind... It depends on the moment, and comes less with practice as experience, and listening to others. My general opinion is that it's easy to over-think. Chill out, relax and go with whatever the flow is (on whatever instrument...). The 'groove' isn't easily captured on an oscilloscope, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 That's quite an interesting video from John Paul Jones. The beat can be 'implied' with no actual musician actually playing on the beat but all understanding exactly where it is. Describes Led Zepplin and The Who perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 This is before the beat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvJ2ATxefsg This is after the beat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKl3Q8kjfb8 I couldn't find a tune where it varies from one to the other, but I've heard it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 There is a really good piece on this topic in Tony Levin's "Beyond the Bass Clef" book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toneknob Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 [quote name='DaveFry' timestamp='1412007261' post='2564781'] Here's a man who should know talking about it at 11:50 ; [/quote] Thanks! That's a perfect example of implied metronomic time being all that's need to demonstrate beat placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1411999975' post='2564704'] I think someone summed it up well upthread. One member of the band is tasked with keeping time. Usually the drummer thinks it's him, often it's the bass player. In reality there's lots of interplay thy happens. Somewere within the bar, there has to be a beat. Could be the hihat, bass drum, ride or maybe the bass player whacking out 8ths. So long as the song doesn't unintentionally speed up or slow down then it remains in time. [/quote] I'm going to disagree with some of this. First of all, every member of the band is responsible for keeping time.One person might be given the task of setting the tempo, but everyone should be keeping time. I think there is also some blurring of time and tempo. It's possible for the tempo to shift slightly while the band still remain in time. Take the Herbie Hancock tune 'Chameleon'-the tempo increases as it progresses but the players are still in time with each other. It's a common occurrence in live performance without a click for the tempo to shift slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I agree. But isn't someone leading that change of tempo? I have been in situations where I've tried to play ahead of the beat and the drummer has just tried to keep 'in time' with me and the whole piece has just got faster and faster. It's certainly complicated. When are you playing ahead, when are you rushing and when are you trying to push the tempo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 haha, yeh, it's not that simple. If the drummer is ahead of the beat, it could sound like he's trying to push the tempo faster. I guess it comes down to learning how to play together as a rhythm section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Dexter Gordon - behind the beat John Coltrane - ahead of it. That's nailed it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I recall Mick Fleetwood saying he thought one of the reasons he worked well with McVie was because one of them played slightly ahead and the other slightly behind and it complemented each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I feel analysis of it is the antithesis of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rumble Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1412113497' post='2565905'] I feel analysis of it is the antithesis of it! [/quote] That's easy for you to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happynoj Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) Behind. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Qnt5bx1OI[/media] Edited September 30, 2014 by happynoj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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