bassace Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I can come only from a jazz perspective. Duke Ellington once said if the bass wasn't ahead of the beat the band didn't swing. Now, swing is an oft abused term. Often applied to bands like Glenn Miller who in my opinion certainly didn't swing due to everything being right on the beat. I understood swing from an early stage in my career mainly from a subconscious influence from LPs (then) I used to listen to. My most significant influence I now know only in hindsight was Sam Jones who played mainly with the Adderly Brothers but also with Bill Evans and Oscar Peterson. If you haven't heard him you should find his stuff on Spot. You'll be struck by the urgency he puts into a tune and that's really what a bass player should do, a bit in front of the beat but never causing the group to speed up. A previous reference was made to Ray Brown; doing exactly the same thing. Of course the slower tunes will need a more studied, introspective approach so this topic refers mainly to mid-up tempo tunes. I remember reading a passage by the jazz writer Gene Lees describing how if the bass is in front that's fine but if the other members of the rhythm section are similarly in front then the tune will speed up. It's a complex interplay between the three (or four) to give the right feel to a tune. I've just lent the book so unfortunately I can't quote from it verbatim but it was interesting to see that a non-musician had the matter nailed. If you'll indulge me, let me mention a two week gig I did on Gran Canaria (someone has to). I didn't take my DB but played the 'resident' EUB. At first something was badly wrong with the rhythm; we just didn't gel. Then I realised that compared to a DB the note comes quicker on an EUB - and probably quicker still from the shorter scaled BG. My playing ahead of the beat was very ahead on the EUB and I had to modify my playing to get the right feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Absolutely. As an electric player, I learned how to play everything on the beat until, one day, a saaxophonist colleague was heard to say that the problem with my playing was that my timing was too good. I discussed this with a saophonist/flautist/guitarist/drummer friend (yes, he played them all) and he explained what it was all about. Took him about 4 minutes and it turned my electric playing around. When I moved over the double bass, I had to revisit the issue and was interested to note that one of my early failings was related to stamina. A very good pianist friend, who I played with last Sunday and have more gigs lined up in the next month or so, noted that, as the early gigs progressed, I would start ok but, as the evening wore on ' the energy would go out of my playing'. In short, I was slowing down through fatigue. Things have got a lot better as I have progressed with the instrument but I am not aware that, if I am tiring, I need to harness a greater deal of energy and dig in more in order to ensure that I remain on top of the beat. It can be exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Yes, the Double Bass is a demanding but ultimately rewarding mistress. At first the stamina required is daunting but it gets easier. Remind you of anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcastillian Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Here's an interesting song re' behind or ahead of the beat. What do you think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrZRURcb1cM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 heres a nice little example of the bass pushing the beat along - how PHAT is this bass tone!! [url="http://youtu.be/IrQIx8kN1-Y?t=2m"]http://youtu.be/IrQIx8kN1-Y?t=2m[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 [quote name='Captain Rumble' timestamp='1412115099' post='2565926'] That's easy for you to say [/quote]nice one centurion! Like it,like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I prefer 'I wish' played behind... which is how we do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 And this version which is on it, grooving, and with that subtle swing. http://youtu.be/x9gXgiHSskk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I've been visualising it using a rotating wheel for many years. The wheel sits on a circular back plate and is marked in one place. A full rotation/revolution of the wheel is achieved in one bar. Where I need to play each note rhythmically is marked on the back plate. When the mark on the wheel meets the mark on the back plate, I play a note. If I want to imagine playing ahead of the beat, the wheel keeps spinning in my imagination but I play the note exactly the same distance before the mark on the wheel reaches the mark on the back board. If I want to play behind the beat, I'll wait until the mark on the wheel has passed the mark on the back board and then play at exactly the same distance in each bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1414103155' post='2586026'] I've been visualising it using a rotating wheel for many years. The wheel sits on a circular back plate and is marked in one place. A full rotation/revolution of the wheel is achieved in one bar. Where I need to play each note rhythmically is marked on the back plate. When the mark on the wheel meets the mark on the back plate, I play a note. If I want to imagine playing ahead of the beat, the wheel keeps spinning in my imagination but I play the note exactly the same distance before the mark on the wheel reaches the mark on the back board. If I want to play behind the beat, I'll wait until the mark on the wheel has passed the mark on the back board and then play at exactly the same distance in each bar. [/quote] I have enough trouble playing on the beat, never mind imagining marks on a rotating wheel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1414103155' post='2586026'] I've been visualising it using a rotating wheel for many years. The wheel sits on a circular back plate and is marked in one place. A full rotation/revolution of the wheel is achieved in one bar. Where I need to play each note rhythmically is marked on the back plate. When the mark on the wheel meets the mark on the back plate, I play a note. If I want to imagine playing ahead of the beat, the wheel keeps spinning in my imagination but I play the note exactly the same distance before the mark on the wheel reaches the mark on the back board. If I want to play behind the beat, I'll wait until the mark on the wheel has passed the mark on the back board and then play at exactly the same distance in each bar. [/quote] Actually, that kinda makes sense! I might have a go with working with that concept... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I've used it for percussion too. You just have to develop a feel for one revolution and feel at any given point where the wheel is. Sometimes I'll move my head around very slightly in a circle as I'm playing just to help with the visualisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I want to play back and I have most trouble with a forward drummer... but whilst it may feel odd at the time, you hear it you play it and the recording invaribly comes up well, as one of us has adjusted..usually me, because that is what bass players do. They make everyone else sound good by knitting it all together. For this reason, I normally want my say on the drummer and I find gtrs and vox just don't get it like bass and keys do..typically... as they hear the top of the song and we hear the bottom. The drummer has to know what he is doing to stop racing the song if forward and dragging it if back... but I don't really go in for wondering where the beat is or should be.. you just lock in and do it. As I prefer back, naturally, I might suggest a 'lazy' beat and I expect them to know what that means... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I don't think there is a one size fits all answer. I spent nearly all my formative years playing with drummers of varying abilities, so I tried to hit the beat exactly but feel like I was leaning into it. Keeping time and pushing the number along. I've been playing with very good drummers for years now and I my preference is to hit the beat whilst leaning backwards, but how I actually play will be decided by the drummer, the band and the number, as they all need different approaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1414131858' post='2586133'] I've used it for percussion too. You just have to develop a feel for one revolution and feel at any given point where the wheel is. [b]Sometimes I'll move my head around very slightly in a circle as I'm playing just to help with the visualisation.[/b] [/quote] Genius!!! So simple, yet I never thought of body movements to help visualise the beat and variations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1414147645' post='2586364'] I don't think there is a one size fits all answer. [/quote] My favourite drummers will play the hi hat on the beat and play the snare and bass drum behind the beat. It creates more space in the pocket for the bass...so more opportunity to play expressively with the beat. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1414142389' post='2586289'] They make everyone else sound good by knitting it all together. [/quote] Yeah but not by compensating for crap playing though. You'll end up roughly in time but the song will lack feel and dynamics...it won't sound tight and smooth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Is there any good literature on this subject? Would be good to read more in depth about it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Just check out the music that came out of Stax, American Sound Studio, Muscle Shoals, Hi, Fame and Malaco in the 60's and 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1414171520' post='2586737'] Yeah but not by compensating for crap playing though. You'll end up roughly in time but the song will lack feel and dynamics...it won't sound tight and smooth [/quote] If you know what you are doing... it should all be covered. I'm known for a deep pocket so generally I'm kind to drummers, but of course, there will be a standard of player required and that is why you know what pool you swim in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1414237540' post='2587352'] ... deep pocket ... [/quote] That's the word I was thinking of. Describes it perfectly. Think of the beat like the pockets on a snooker table and the notes like snooker balls. You still have to be accurate and get the balls in the pocket but there's quite a lot of slop. You can hit the pocket at the front or the back, as long as the ball goes in. You don't want your balls bouncing round the table uncontrollably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 This might have something to do with how I feel comfortable with some drummers, and can play the same song with other drummers that you cant find fault with, but I feel less comfortable, might be down to the minutest feel of the relaxed or pushed approach to a song. I can never quantify this feeling but I get it with various drummers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1414245777' post='2587458'] ....I can never quantify this feeling but I get it with various drummers.... [/quote] +1 I'm doing some gigs with a great drummer, but it's taken me a long time to feel comfortable playing with him. He doesn't seem to vary the beat at all. It feels mechanical but when I listen to the recordings his playing is spot on. I play with other guys who are all over the place but playing with them just feels "right". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1414252955' post='2587567'] +1 I'm doing some gigs with a great drummer, but it's taken me a long time to feel comfortable playing with him. He doesn't seem to vary the beat at all. It feels mechanical but when I listen to the recordings his playing is spot on. [/quote] This is what happened with that guy I messaged you about, Chris...very correct and sorted fab drummer but he insisted on playing foward and dead straight and as he was the dep I bent to him. I didn't feel it, tbh.. but the playback recording was great. The second set he loosed up and we spoke to him and he was much better for me. I can see that guy doing very very good gigs as he has it all sorted.. but the most pertinent thing was, he is nowhere near our other guy who is just on another planet, ( the gulf is amazing ) with feel, chops and general musicality and I just love to play with him on the gig. . Edited October 26, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 [quote name='elcastillian' timestamp='1412173441' post='2566442'] Here's an interesting song re' behind or ahead of the beat. What do you think [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrZRURcb1cM[/media] [/quote] Great thread. Great music is about groove! This song is a classic example. If you listen closely to the hi-hats, they are being played in perfect on the beat timing, but the bass drum and snare are leaving enough space for the bassline to work into. If you listen to the where the accent on the snare falls in the bar and where the accent on the bassline falls in the bar, that's what really creates the feel of this song. Along with the phrasing. This is why I do not subscribe to the school of thought of quantising everything - those who want to quantise everything straight onto the up and down beats just do not understand the concept of groove. Or phrasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 If you concentrated on the hi-hat and snare it would drive you ( me ) mad... I'd turn it right down in the cans if I had to play to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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