NBD J&D 75 Jazz Bass!

[discreet]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413154820' post='2575417']
What's wrong with basswood? Apart from it denting easily, and having a bit of an uninteresting grain?
[/quote]

Yes, I no longer believe that the type of wood (or other material) a bass body is made from has any bearing whatsoever on 'tone'.

[hamfist]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413154820' post='2575417']


What's wrong with basswood?
[/quote]

I know this is a contentious subject, but I have yet to play a basswood-constructed bass that I have been impressed with. Ditto Agathis. Soft, non-resonant. I strongly believe that the body and (even more) the neck structure and material are intimately involved in the tone of a bass. Hardness and rigidity being key factors.

I'm sure basswood construction can be done right. I am aware that Bongo's are made from Basswood for example. But the whole instrument will have been designed from the ground up with that in mind I expect, and a lot of care gone into the whole construction.
Cheaper basses just seem to use standard designs and yet make the bodies from basswood. Doesn't work IMO.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1413180593' post='2575463']
I know this is a contentious subject, but I have yet to play a basswood-constructed bass that I have been impressed with. Ditto Agathis. Soft, non-resonant. I strongly believe that the body and (even more) the neck structure and material are intimately involved in the tone of a bass. Hardness and rigidity being key factors.

I'm sure basswood construction can be done right. I am aware that Bongo's are made from Basswood for example. But the whole instrument will have been designed from the ground up with that in mind I expect, and a lot of care gone into the whole construction.
Cheaper basses just seem to use standard designs and yet make the bodies from basswood. Doesn't work IMO.
[/quote]

I think I saw some experiments some time ago where people made identical guitars except that they differed in various aspects. E.g. set neck versus through neck. I think they also changed the body wood. EDIT: Here is a report on it: http://www.guitarsite.com/news/music_news_from_around_the_world/electric-guitar-wood-myth-busted/ The result was that people actually couldn't tell the difference between recordings made with the two basses. I'd want to see further double blinded tests to see whether this is actually the case. But, like people's preference for Stradivarius violins, there may be some placebo effect going on.

Note: I'm aware that people usually don't respond well to others suggesting that something they believe is a myth, but at least I've included a reference to partially relevant research. That body wood doesn't seem to make a significant different in guitars doesn't prove that the same happens for basses, but it certainly makes that claim plausible.

There could still be a correlation between basswood and basses that aren't wonderful. Simply because basswood is cheap and therefore gets used for cheap instruments, and also high end instrument buyers don't like it, so high end bass makers may avoid it for marketing purposes. But, correlation does not imply causation.

[hamfist]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413186844' post='2575506']
There could still be a correlation between basswood and basses that aren't wonderful. Simply because basswood is cheap and therefore gets used for cheap instruments, and also high end instrument buyers don't like it, so high end bass makers may avoid it for marketing purposes. But, correlation does not imply causation.
[/quote]

Quite possible for Basswood, agreed.

I, like many others though, have changed the body of a bass whilst keeping everything else the same, and noticed a profound difference in tone. I will note though that there are differences between different bodies of the same wood, as there are differences between woods. Each body is effectively unique. However, I am convinced that there are also reasonable generalisations that can be stated about various woods as used in bass bodies. This really isn't the thread to go into it in detail though.

My initial comment about basswood construction in the Revelation Jazz bass on ebay will put many others off as well as me though.

[Conan]

[quote name='jassbass' timestamp='1413146178' post='2575325']
Looks the part,but doubt it could sound as good as it looks
[/quote]

Why? Plenty of people (including me) on this thread (and other similar ones) have said that these basses sound good - not just "for the price", but they sound good.

Whether you choose to believe this is, of course, your prerogative! To my ears it sounds more full and authoritative than either of my two Fender Js. Very even response across the strings and no noticeable dead spots.

Believe what you want to believe - but these basses sounds good!

[mcnach]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1413180593' post='2575463']
I'm sure basswood construction can be done right. I am aware that Bongo's are made from Basswood for example. But the whole instrument will have been designed from the ground up with that in mind I expect, and a lot of care gone into the whole construction.
Cheaper basses just seem to use standard designs and yet make the bodies from basswood. Doesn't work IMO.
[/quote]

I very much doubt that they designed the Bongo thinking of the properties of basswood.
I think it's more likely that basswood may be cheap(er) in some places, so it's used on cheap(er) instruments, and the lack of "inspiration" is merely a reflection of an instrument made cheaply, cutting corners.

Leo Fender didn't choose alder or ash because of their "tonewood" qualities exactly.

Plenty of decent guitars are made of basswood and got nothing to be ashamed of. The whole classic "metal" Ibanez RG550 guitars were fantastic (once you removed the meh V7/V8 pickups), and made of basswood. Incidentally I had an RG548, which was the same design but with a natural finish, and the body being ash (for prettiness)... it didn't sound any better than a miriad of basswood RG550s I came across.

But... I know, we'll just have to agree to disagree

[mcnach]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413186844' post='2575506']
There could still be a correlation between basswood and basses that aren't wonderful. Simply because basswood is cheap and therefore gets used for cheap instruments, and also high end instrument buyers don't like it, so high end bass makers may avoid it for marketing purposes. But, correlation does not imply causation.
[/quote]

this

[hamfist]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1413220716' post='2576010']


I very much doubt that they designed the Bongo thinking of the properties of basswood.
I think it's more likely that basswood may be cheap(er) in some places, so it's used on cheap(er) instruments, and the lack of "inspiration" is merely a reflection of an instrument made cheaply, cutting corners.

Leo Fender didn't choose alder or ash because of their "tonewood" qualities exactly.

Plenty of decent guitars are made of basswood and got nothing to be ashamed of. The whole classic "metal" Ibanez RG550 guitars were fantastic (once you removed the meh V7/V8 pickups), and made of basswood. Incidentally I had an RG548, which was the same design but with a natural finish, and the body being ash (for prettiness)... it didn't sound any better than a miriad of basswood RG550s I came across.

But... I know, we'll just have to agree to disagree
[/quote]

Agreed, basswood is great for guitars.

But I do suspect that when Leo was choosing what woods to use for his P's and J's, their tonal qualities were somewhere in his thoughts.

[dazza14]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Allez, allez, allez Wasps, Wasps, Wasps!!![/font]

[discreet]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1413222645' post='2576044']
But I do suspect that when Leo was choosing what woods to use for his P's and J's, their tonal qualities were somewhere in his thoughts.
[/quote]

I'm sorry to report that they weren't. He chose woods based on availability, cost and ease of finishing.
Fender did not consider tone to be a factor at any point in the process.

[hamfist]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413275408' post='2576496']


I'm sorry to report that they weren't. He chose woods based on availability, cost and ease of finishing.
Fender did not consider tone to be a factor at any point in the process.
[/quote]

I honestly struggle to believe that. I am not doubting that you have read it and are repeating it in good faith. but I wonder where or who the original source was and how reliable it was. I obviously stand to be corrected if I am completely wrong.
I am not doubting that availability, cost and ease of finishing were not important factors, but tone having no importance in any decision ?? Hmmmm. Why not just use pine, which seems to fulfil all those criteria and is much cheaper.

[discreet]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1413314642' post='2577105']
I honestly struggle to believe that. I am not doubting that you have read it and are repeating it in good faith. but I wonder where or who the original source was and how reliable it was. I obviously stand to be corrected if I am completely wrong.
[/quote]

Well I'm quoting Black and Molinaro's 'The Fender Bass - An Illustrated History' which is my Fender Bible and I have no reason to believe they would be wrong about this when they are right about so much else... but it's not gospel, I suppose

Have you seen any written proof that Leo chose woods for their tone? Not that I want to attach too much importance to it. I will say though that [i]in my humble opinion and in my experience[/i], I don't think that body woods greatly affect the tone of an electric bass.

Edited October 14, 2014 by discreet

[Mr Anthony]

Quite glad I stumbled across this thread! I've been thinking about a jazz, and that surf green is absolutely lovely!

Might have to think more seriously after Christmas

Glad you've got yourselves some lovely examples!

[hamfist]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413315071' post='2577113']


Well I'm quoting Black and Molinaro's 'The Fender Bass - An Illustrated History' which is my Fender Bible and I have no reason to believe they would be wrong about this when they are right about so much else... but it's not gospel, I suppose

Have you seen any written proof that Leo chose woods for their tone? Not that I want to attach too much importance to it. I will say though that [i]in my humble opinion and in my experience[/i], I don't think that body woods greatly affect the tone of an electric bass.
[/quote]

I have no evidence whatsoever for my suspicion. I just find it inconceivable that any musical instrument manufacturer of any but the cheapest instruments does not include tone and musicality as at least a small part of the decision-making reasoning for the design and materials. It's like making tyres and not taking into account any grip or friction of the material chosen with road tarmac.
The Black and Molinaro book is, I guess, a fairly decent source but who knows what the real truth is ?

I think one is going to play and play.

[discreet]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1413318277' post='2577155']
...I just find it inconceivable that any musical instrument manufacturer of any but the cheapest instruments does not include tone and musicality as at least a small part of the decision-making reasoning for the design and materials ...who knows what the real truth is?
[/quote]

OK, try this then:

'[color=#333333]Fender adopted alder for electric instrument bodies in mid 1956, not because of a detailed scientific evaluation of its sonic properties, but probably for no other reason than it was [/color][i]there[/i][color=#333333]; that it was readily available and more affordable than ash. Ever since, it is the body wood for the majority of Fender electric instruments. It was and still is a very good choice ...[[/color][color=#333333]red] alder is used for guitars in general and Fender guitars in particular. Since it grows from Southeast Alaska to Central California and almost always within 125 miles of the Pacific Coast, a plentiful and affordable supply existed practically in Fender’s backyard.'[/color]

[color=#333333]Source -- www.fender.com[/color]

[MarkG3]

[quote name='Mr Anthony' timestamp='1413316450' post='2577132']
Quite glad I stumbled across this thread! I've been thinking about a jazz, and that surf green is absolutely lovely!

Might have to think more seriously after Christmas

Glad you've got yourselves some lovely examples!
[/quote]

Or you could think more seriously before Christmas

[hamfist]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413319453' post='2577167']


OK, try this then:

'[color=#333333]Fender adopted alder for electric instrument bodies in mid 1956, not because of a detailed scientific evaluation of its sonic properties, but probably for no other reason than it was [/color][i]there[/i][color=#333333]; that it was readily available and more affordable than ash. Ever since, it is the body wood for the majority of Fender electric instruments. It was and still is a very good choice ...[[/color][color=#333333]red] alder is used for guitars in general and Fender guitars in particular. Since it grows from Southeast Alaska to Central California and almost always within 125 miles of the Pacific Coast, a plentiful and affordable supply existed practically in Fender’s backyard.'[/color]

[color=#333333]Source -- www.fender.com[/color]
[/quote]

I think their use of the word "probably" indicates that the source of all this is not actually that close to the decision-making process of Fender at the time.
It's true that some myths simply grow and grow. After being repeated so many times, they almost seem to become "fact". I am not claiming that I am right or that you and the Fender source are wrong, but simply that I find it almost unbelievable if it were true, and I suspect the absolute truth will never be known to the general public.

[discreet]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1413357056' post='2577359']
... I find it almost unbelievable if it were true, and I suspect the absolute truth will never be known to the general public.
[/quote]

Then I think we can agree that people will believe whatever fits in with their preferred worldview...
Also, I was under the impression I was posting in the 'tone wood' thread, so apologies to all for the derailment!! D'oh!

[Mr Anthony]

[quote name='Mark_88MPH' timestamp='1413356859' post='2577355']


Or you could think more seriously before Christmas
[/quote]

No! Stop, don't tempt me! I've got a Tokai to get rid of before anything else comes in.

[jassbass]

So are these j&d jazz's good enough to gig?
I do love the green one

[Rumple]

Mine is a tad heavy but apart from that it's as good a bass as any to gig with.

[itsmedunc]

[quote name='jassbass' timestamp='1413383124' post='2577740']
So are these j&d jazz's good enough to gig?
I do love the green one
[/quote]

I'm going to pick one up this evening. Will post what I find...

[discreet]

[quote name='jassbass' timestamp='1413383124' post='2577740']
So are these j&d jazz's good enough to gig?
[/quote]

Definitely.

[Sean]

[quote name='jassbass' timestamp='1413383124' post='2577740']
So are these j&d jazz's good enough to gig?
[/quote]

Yes, absolutely. Mine's got Hipshots, Hot Rod (Wizard) '74s, replacement loom, new bridge and a proper fret job. It's good enough to have a career with.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Sean

[Mr Anthony]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1413385512' post='2577780']


Yes, absolutely. Mine's got Hipshots, Hot Rod (Wizard) '74s, replacement loom, new bridge and a proper fret job. It's good enough to have a career with.
[/quote]

Hi Sean, did the hipshots just drop right in, or was there a bit more to it than that?