Genesis: Together and Apart (BBC Documentary).

[namefail]

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04l3phb/genesis-together-and-apart"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...ether-and-apart[/url]

[quote="Iplayer"]A feature-length documentary about one of the most successful British bands in rock music, reuniting Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel, Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford and Steve Hackett to tell their story. The film recounts their extraordinary musical story, exploring the songwriting and the emotional highs and lows. It features previously unseen archive material and rare footage from across their entire career. [/quote]

[JTUK]

Good to see them all sitting round the table... as opposed to detached 'interviews' on their own...
but you could see why they split up, just from those little things..

[BassBus]

One glaring omision was no mention of Ray Wilson. Surely part of the band history.

[Mickeyboro]

And no mention at all of Wind and Wuthering. Caption couldn't spell Stuermer right… I could go on!

[wombatboter]

The body language of Tony Banks was very clear :-)

[The Admiral]

[quote name='wombatboter' timestamp='1412515264' post='2569479']
The body language of Tony Banks was very clear :-)
[/quote]

This for me was the most fascinating aspect - they all looked pretty uncomfortable I thought, but I don't think Tony Banks did himself any favours. He came across as bitter and envious I thought, certainly of the success Collins and Gabriel have enjoyed, and for me, this was rooted in the belief that he's the most accomplished musician in the band, but hasn't enjoyed the success he feels that merits. Gabriel is an ok keyboard player and drummer, Collins plays mongrel piano, and might be a crack drummer, but he's not had a proper musical education - "so why them, not me" kind of attitude. He reminded me rather of an arrogant schoolteacher, who can't
stand the thought of the kids who he considered thick and useless, turning up at the school reunion in a nice car, and clearly having been more successful and now more wealthy than he ever was or will be.

Steve Hackett got a pretty raw deal too IMHO, with the original school band guitarist getting more air time.

Gabriel was well out of it from what I can see, and it was telling that Collins is still made to feel like the junior member of the band, and is quite clearly the grudgingly accepted senior NCO, and not an officer and gentleman in the manner of Rutherford and Banks.

[toneknob]

One of the best bits was the Hackett/Banks showdown. We raised our handbags and went "Ooo" chez tone at that point.

Great footage that I've not seen before from the early 70s (eg Atomic Sunrise), some good bits from around Pete's early solo career but not in enough detail - eg how they got that gated reverb sound on Intruder that defined the 80s from thereon.

Disappointing: No Selling England, no Wind & Wuthering. Steurmer getting the "Firth of Fifth" spotlight ("he improvised a bit" said Banks - no, he made a right pigs ear of it actually), the early 80s timeline gets a bit muddled.

In general, great to see the five of them in the same place, but I don't think we've learned much we didn't already know.

[ambient]

Steve Hackett didn't like it, I just read this on his Facebook page [url="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Steve-Hackett/123101228589?fref=nf"]https://www.facebook.com/pages/Steve-Hackett/123101228589?fref=nf[/url]

[toneknob]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1412520316' post='2569528']
Steve Hackett didn't like it, I just read this on his Facebook page [url="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Steve-Hackett/123101228589?fref=nf"]https://www.facebook...1228589?fref=nf[/url]
[/quote]

Yeah, that's the bit I forgot to mention. Still, my gig dollar is going in his pocket this year as well as last year, and the R-Kive (cringe) compilation is just embarassing really.

[JamesTun]

Thought it was a pretty amazing documentary.

Hackett is bitter isn't he? I relish his solo work. But to bitch and moan about not getting enough air time is stereotypical of an egocentric guitarist.

[paulears]

Anyone who leaves a band that does well without them is entitled to feel a bit miffed, who wouldn't, but in this example, what got me was that the Hackett and Gabriel era was such a long time ago, we've forgotten exactly how much time has passed, so on a timeline, their period is tiny. The tracks mentioned are truly ancient. I saw the band twice live, that's all, and the first time without Hackett and Gabriel was 37 years ago! Does anyone in their forties remember the Beatles first drummer, or quo's bass player etc etc? Die hard fans do, but I'd bet many people who like genesis perhaps don't even remember them having a different line up to the current one. Far too long ago, and hacketts style was kind of 'of that age'

[wateroftyne]

Hackett's right to be a bit miffed. But, with so much to fit in to 90 minutes, something had to give way.

The rest of it was OK. There wasn't much new in there... we know Banks is bitter and uptight, and to ignore W&W is a crime.

And... Whoever is managing the band's legacy needs to have a word with themselves. Some of it is embarrassing (R-Kive, the crap in the store...).

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='paulears' timestamp='1412579881' post='2569991']
Anyone who leaves a band that does well without them is entitled to feel a bit miffed, who wouldn't, but in this example, what got me was that the Hackett and Gabriel era was such a long time ago, we've forgotten exactly how much time has passed, so on a timeline, their period is tiny. The tracks mentioned are truly ancient. I saw the band twice live, that's all, and the first time without Hackett and Gabriel was 37 years ago! Does anyone in their forties remember the Beatles first drummer, or quo's bass player etc etc? Die hard fans do, but I'd bet many people who like genesis perhaps don't even remember them having a different line up to the current one. Far too long ago, and hacketts style was kind of 'of that age'
[/quote]

While the Gabriel era is short compared to the total lifespan of the band, I think it's more accurate to measure things in terms of original albums. As Genesis has been inactive for a fair proportion of the last 20 years or so. Measured in terms of original albums (not compilations etc.) then the Gabriel and Hackett eras are more significant.

When you talk about the Beatles first drummer, then we have to remember that Mr Richard Starkey OBE was the Beatles drummer for all of their recorded albums (maybe not all of the White Album). Hence while Pete Best and earlier drummers are partially forgotten (less so for Best), this in no way compares to Gabriel and Hackett.

Did they mention Calling All Stations? If they did, I blinked and I missed it. Was Ray Wilson mentioned?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1412583163' post='2570022']
Did they mention Calling All Stations? If they did, I blinked and I missed it. Was Ray Wilson mentioned?
[/quote]

No, 'cos it was terrible (IMO).

I'm assuming that'll be rectified on additional material in the DVD release.

[wateroftyne]

One of the most telling quotes for me was from Tony Banks, who he said he realised times had changed for Genesis when one of the singles (Never a Time, maybe? I can't remember) from 'We Can't Dance' didn't automatically get playlisted on the radio. He seemed really put out about that.

It clearly didn't occur to him that it might have just been because it was awful.

[The Admiral]

[quote name='JamesTun' timestamp='1412551629' post='2569955']
Thought it was a pretty amazing documentary.

Hackett is bitter isn't he? I relish his solo work. But to bitch and moan about not getting enough air time is stereotypical of an egocentric guitarist.
[/quote]

Depends what your expectation is I think. Hackett's Facebook page makes it pretty clear that he was assured that everyone's careers, both within the band and solo, would be given equal air time. Naive? Probably - he's had no career in the limelight post Geneis, at least not in a mainstream way , as per Gabriel and Collins. Why would they give him as much time for his solo work - as for So, or Face Value?

That said, if that what he was promised, and it may even have been a condition of him taking part, then why wouldn't he be pissed off. He may feel he was strung along to get him to turn up for the photo opportunity.

[toneknob]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1412583163' post='2570022']
While the Gabriel era is short compared to the total lifespan of the band, I think it's more accurate to measure things in terms of original albums. As Genesis has been inactive for a fair proportion of the last 20 years or so. Measured in terms of original albums (not compilations etc.) then the Gabriel and Hackett eras are more significant.
[/quote]

And in terms of quality.

Same goes for solo careers: why Mike and Tony got a look in with their lame solo material while Steve's continually inventive and diverse material was ignored was beyond me.

[Bilbo]

I caught about 5 minutes of this as I was on the move.

I think one of the realities of life in any successful band is that you inevitably get a distorted perspective on a, how important your band is and b, how important indivduals are as a part of that band. Musicians who leave bands and do solo projects are always taking a risk. With Genesis, Gabriel, Collins and Rutherford had solo careers which were very successful. Banks and Hackett had other highs and lows but were not anywhere near the same league as the others. The fact is that Gabriel and Collins were singers, frontmen who were immediately recognisable and who both have larger than life personalities and commercial product. Rutherford's side projects were also commercial but he didn't front them because he knew he was not a frontman. Hackett's and Bank's side shows less commercial. Hackett's solo career was in instrumental Prog, a niche market, whilst Banks has one pseudo Genesis album (A Curious Feeling - which I love, by the way) then some odd soundtracks and classical pieces etc. More to the point, Hackett and Banks particularly have no real 'presence' as human beings. Any sour grapes they have should be put in the context that, were they seeking massive commercial success a la Collins, their choices for side projects were flawed.

An obvious parallel would be Yes. Frontman Jon Anderson's solo work with Vangelis results in chart success. Rick Wakeman; flamboyant, use of popular vehicles like narrated literary works relative success. Steve Howe instrumental albums, less successful. Bruford goes down the Jazz route and plays to much smaller audiences although still has some success as part of underground Prog Gods King Crimson. Alan White does a relatively weak funk LP with some old mates and it disappears without a trace. No surprises really.

As for Banks being the 'musical' one; he may be technically the most sophisticated and trained musician in the Genesis camp but when has THAT mattered a jot? Some of the greatest players and composers in the world have operated in relative obscurity and with only limited financial success. If it was all about how 'good' we are as musicians, Jazzers would be playing stadia!!

There is arguably also a class thing going on here; expectations met or not. Phil Collins, the undeserving poor!!!

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1412594364' post='2570146']
... Jazzers would be playing stadia!!

[/quote]

Is that in 9/4?

[Bilbo]

At least!

[jonsmith]

Well the basic premise of the programme was supposed to be how one band had not only had success together, but spawned so many solo careers as well. As Steve has had a prolific and quite often artistically successful solo career I can understand him being a little peeved about the final edit, which seemed to imply that he just wandered off into the sunset some time in the 70s, never to be seen or heard again until now. While commercially not up there with PC's, PG's or even MR's, It could be argued that Steve Hackett has had a far more successful solo career than Tony Banks, with several top 30 albums and a few even getting into the top 20. Despite Mr Banks claiming that his first solo album made the top 20, the accompanying visual said otherwise...yet his solo career got quite a bit more air time than Mr Hackett's (not hard as Steve's got zero coverage). Seemed a bit odd to me to have not mentioned it at all, especially as Steve was the first one to record a solo album (which actually caused a bit of resentment within the Genesis machine, despite two of them appearing on it).

The conversations with the five of them in the room were very interesting though, especially some of the looks and body language. Even Mrs S clocked some of the stuff that wasn't said (verbally at least). Would have liked to see more of those discussions and less prattling, mainly from non-entities with little of consequence to say. I don't need someone who probably doesn't even really know that much about the band to help me understand - just show me the story, let the band talk and I can make up my own mind - but such is the nature of these types of programmes.

Good idea, dreadfully executed.

Edited October 6, 2014 by jonsmith

[BassTractor]

I'm with Mrs. S's husband.

[toneknob]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1412608543' post='2570327']
I'm with Mrs. S's husband.
[/quote]

I think Mrs S would have something to say about that as well.

[BassTractor]

[bassace]

The three were on the One Show two days earlier doing a trailer. Tony Banks said, rather pointedly I thought, 'I'm the archivist!' I was reminded of Winston Churchill's oft quoted remark - "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it." Still a good keyboard player, though. Banks, not Churchill.