Does body wood make a difference to the sound of a bass guitar?

[discreet]

Well, this is a remarkably calm and well-behaved thread.
Usually when this subject is breached it all goes horribly tits-up fairly quickly. Well done, everyone!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413222251' post='2576038']
Well, this is a remarkably calm and well-behaved thread.
Usually when this subject is breached it all goes horribly tits-up fairly quickly. Well done, everyone!
[/quote]
All in good time

[Twincam]

My explanation is that the wood (density) effects the decay of the kinetic energy of the vibrating string, that and the resistance of the air on the vibrating string.

Those two factors will to some degree effect tone. But an electric bass is not an acoustic instrument so the affect will not be as much. And i imagine air resistance will make no detectable difference unless in a lab setting.

A very light material in density like polystyrene would probably sound different to say a hard wood. But there on extremes of density.

[Skol303]

Does the choice of tyres on your car affect how well it drives?

Partly. But so do a lot of other factors - not least the driver him/herself

Same applies to choice of bass wood, innit.

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1413223685' post='2576065']
Does the choice of tyres on your car affect how well it drives?

Partly. But so do a lot of other factors - not least the driver him/herself

Same applies to choice of bass wood, innit.
[/quote]

Well in some ways tires are more like strings - or maybe the speaker cones????

It's not easy when you take an analogy to a ridiculous length... In any case I agree.
The body wood could be compared to the body / chassis of the car. As long as it's not too flexible or brittle the car should work great - at least for a while!

[xilddx]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413196738' post='2575623']
Great, so plywood it is, then!!
[/quote]

Most boutique basses are essentially plywood these days.

[stingrayPete1977]

And even if the chassis does have some flex as long as it has been factored in thats ok too.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413202668' post='2575748']

Was it Bernie Goodfellow that said the woods do make a difference but no two are the same even from the same type of wood so you can't 'spec' a type of wood for a type of tone making the whole argument basically a non starter? He said he doesn't know what it will sound like until he plugs it in didn't he? And the best sounding bass he made was made from pieces of scrap wood glued together for shits and giggles!
[/quote]

Pretty much - with his basses, the wood seems almost negligible. He says that through his experience of building, one piece of wood, even if seemingly identical to another piece, can make a bass sound different... However, as soon as you go active, he reckons it's 90% the electronics and 10% everything else. I seen to recall Martin at Sei has the same opinion. The only way you know how a bass is gonna sound is to play it once it's been made.

You probably got a better chance of things sounding the same with say status.

Probably also worth mentioning that tolerances in electronics and particularly the scatterwinding of pickups all adds to the complexity.

[TheSiberian]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1413222251' post='2576038']
Well, this is a remarkably calm and well-behaved thread.
Usually when this subject is breached it all goes horribly tits-up fairly quickly. Well done, everyone!
[/quote]
However, if we have to be well mannered up to the end we should inform people like Ken Smith, Vinny Fodera, Mike Tobias, Steven Sukop or Ken Lawrence that they are deadly wrong with their 30+ years old batch of tone woods, exibition figured and rare exotic top and core woods.
How is it possible to ask thousans of our hard earned dollars for things that don't matter?
This smells like scandal.
My God, what a chance for me to look at this thread, just spared a lot of cash.
I will cancel my next Fodera order...a 50$ chinese bass will do it as well if not better.
Thank you.
Best

Edited October 13, 2014 by TheSiberian

[HowieBass]

... but we are talking about what it's made out of rather than how well it's made and how nice it looks... so keep that Fodera order in the pipeline...

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TheSiberian' timestamp='1413226894' post='2576132']

However, if we have to be well mannered up to the end we should inform people like Ken Smith, Vinny Fodera, Mike Tobias, Steven Sukop or Ken Lawrence that they are deadly wrong with their 30+ years old batch of tone woods, exibition figured and rare exotic top and core woods.
How is it possible to ask thousans of our hard earned dollars for things that don't matter?
This smells like scandal.
My God, what a chance for me to look at this thread, just spared a lot of cash.
I will cancel my next Fodera order...a 50$ chinese bass will do it as well if not better.
Thank you.
Best
[/quote]
Can you point us towards any recordings of music where the exhibition figuring or exotic top altered the tone? The core wood and tone woods might make a noticeable difference but the look of the top and its rarity, really? They are just trinkets and a demonstration of the luthiers skills or aesthetic design acumen. I'd happily put a weeks wages on not one person knowing two near identicle basses apart tonally if one had a walnut top and the other a bookmatched flame maple one in a blind test. If you had heard them both first you might tell which is which after as one might be deeper/brighter regardless of the top.

Im filing tonewoods with duracell batteries sounding better than asda own brand

[discreet]

[quote name='TheSiberian' timestamp='1413226894' post='2576132']
I will cancel my next Fodera order...a $50 Chinese bass will do it as well if not better.
[/quote]

Heh. Well... there are other components involved... but yes, it will.

[TheSiberian]

Thanks for your well documented opinion.
I can see the light now (as well said Jake Elwood)...maybe also because of the Duracells.
I still want to belive that we are here also for fun. ":0)
Best

Edited October 13, 2014 by TheSiberian

[stingrayPete1977]

If the fancy top added a smidge of treble which I think we are all conceding is possible TheSiberian do you not think in reality it's going to be an insignificant amount compared to say +/-18db of boost or cut on a Glockenklang preamp? Serious question im not trying to cause an arguement

[hamfist]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413229141' post='2576186']
If the fancy top added a smidge of treble which I think we are all conceding is possible TheSiberian do you not think in reality it's going to be an insignificant amount compared to say +/-18db of boost or cut on a Glockenklang preamp? Serious question im not trying to cause an arguement
[/quote]

I strongly suspect that TheSiberian's comments were made with tongue firmly in cheek.

[stingrayPete1977]

Left or right?
Did I miss the sarcasm?

Edited October 13, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[TheSiberian]

My friend Pete,
Of course not bad feelings for a fellow brother in arms, really.
On a serious side.
I don't want to get showy but I have six Smths high end sixers and even if they all have the same electronics and pickups, they all sound different.
Ok, maybe not for the uninitiated ears but quite different in fact.
This difference is not between good and bad but each wood combination had a specific flavour.
Mahogany body sounds different than maple or walnut.
This is why specially in the classical luthiery the woods, their quality and looks are very important for the final result, of course the mastery of the craft is again more important.
Of course not all beautiful "cofee table" exotic woods are tone woods but at least the ones that master builders like Fodera, Smith..you name them, use for their instruments are really top of the notch and have a deep impact over the overall sound.
This sound flavour is also present for the neck wood, fretboard wood, heel wood, etc.
Try to make the total of these combinations and you'll understand why this matter is not just white and black. I would make here a paralel with the art of the great chefs in the kitchen or with the art of winery or wiskey.
As you said it's not here the place to have arguments but...even if we like it or not the luthiery is an art and not a daily job, something like making music. It's subtile and complex and this is why I really appreciate it.
Best

[stingrayPete1977]

No worries I do appreciate the luthiery skills and enjoy looking at fancy basses in awe, they always play and sound great ime too, I've tried Alleva, Roscoe, GB, Sadowsky, Marleux, old Warwicks, Nordys, Cellinder, Sei etc over the years they were all great and very pretty. Im not disputing that the parts come together for a great bass but no one really knows if a Sei bass with a maple top would sound better or worse, brighter or deeper etc until its built, as wood is organic two basses made of the same woods can and do sound different to each other, different, not better

[TheSiberian]

There are always differencies between two or more basses with the same specs but far, far less important than for example the sound difference between a maple neck jazz bass and a rosewood jazz bass...An alder body and an ash body, etc.
In the same logic all these wood combinations should be predictible for a master builder, so usually he will not work "in the dark" waiting an esotheric light to choose if the final bass will sound brilliant or crap. At least I don't think so.
Best

[stingrayPete1977]

Thats what I was saying backed up by EBS Freak though, Bernie Goodfellow and Martin at Sei basses both said they dont know until its strung up and plugged in even if the parts came from the same block of lumber, I've seen a lot of their basses and trust them so who knows?

[xilddx]

[quote name='TheSiberian' timestamp='1413230830' post='2576225']
My friend Pete,
Of course not bad feelings for a fellow brother in arms, really.
On a serious side.
I don't want to get showy but I have six Smths high end sixers and even if they all have the same electronics and pickups, they all sound different.
Ok, maybe not for the uninitiated ears but quite different in fact.
This difference is not between good and bad but each wood combination had a specific flavour.
Mahogany body sounds different than maple or walnut.
This is why specially in the classical luthiery the woods, their quality and looks are very important for the final result, of course the mastery of the craft is again more important.
Of course not all beautiful "cofee table" exotic woods are tone woods but at least the ones that master builders like Fodera, Smith..you name them, use for their instruments are really top of the notch and have a deep impact over the overall sound.
This sound flavour is also present for the neck wood, fretboard wood, heel wood, etc.
Try to make the total of these combinations and you'll understand why this matter is not just white and black. I would make here a paralel with the art of the great chefs in the kitchen or with the art of winery or wiskey.
As you said it's not here the place to have arguments but...even if we like it or not the luthiery is an art and not a daily job, something like making music. It's subtile and complex and this is why I really appreciate it.
Best
[/quote]
Yes but how do you know it's just the wood making the difference?

[randythoades]

From my limited experience, mainly in building my own guitars from various parts, I can't tell the difference in body wood. In fact, my main bass at the moment is a home build pbass. I originally had a walnut body (which weighed a ton) which got damaged so I used the opportunity to swap it out for a lightweight Paulownia body - really cheap wood that they use in the DIY Build A Guitar kits. Not only could I not tell the difference between the tone of my bass and the USA Pbass I had at the time, but I also couldn't tell the difference on between the walnut and paulownia even though guitar nearly half the weight. When I swapped out the Fender pickup to try a Wilkinson Alnico one I was blown away by the difference.

[discreet]

[quote name='randythoades' timestamp='1413281096' post='2576572']
From my limited experience, mainly in building my own guitars from various parts, I can't tell the difference in body wood. In fact, my main bass at the moment is a home build pbass. I originally had a walnut body (which weighed a ton) which got damaged so I used the opportunity to swap it out for a lightweight Paulownia body - really cheap wood that they use in the DIY Build A Guitar kits. Not only could I not tell the difference between the tone of my bass and the USA Pbass I had at the time, but I also couldn't tell the difference on between the walnut and paulownia even though guitar nearly half the weight. When I swapped out the Fender pickup to try a Wilkinson Alnico one I was blown away by the difference.
[/quote]

Entwistle pickups are really good too, but are regarded with suspicion - because they're 'too cheap'!
Makes you think the whole thing is just snake-oil, doesn't it? Why buy expensive parts made from 'unobtainium' if they don't exist?

I can see the point of making a bass from exotic woods for the look and feel of the thing, but if you're not into those natural finishes (and I'm not), then in my opinion if the body wood is light, strong and durable enough to securely hold the neck and hardware and take a decent paint finish then it makes not a lot of difference what it is!!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1413221106' post='2576018']
In a discussion such as this, it's always easy to talk about personal experience, the statements of experts, and what seems logical. However, there are lots of examples where all of these can be referenced, but even then, the claim is wrong.

If we want to know if body wood makes a significant (e.g. audible to a human) difference, then the only way to know for sure is a well designed and executed experiment. And when experiments have been done, they suggest that body wood does not make an appreciable difference to the tone of a solid body electric guitar/bass.

This doesn't mean that the question is answered. It's often possible to design a more robust experiment. However, from the actual information we have, the claim that body wood does not make a significant difference seems to be winning out.

There are plenty of examples of how myths can take hold. E.g. bi-wiring of amps has been shown by scientific tests to be worthless. However, speaker manufacturers don't dare to release speakers without ports for bi-wiring, as they wouldn't be able to sell them. The myth is too strongly and widely believed.

It could well be that the same applies to electric solid-body bass body woods.
[/quote]I think that the way it's tested is interesting, as I said earlier when looking at wood it only makes sense as a component in a mechanical system - so the test that's oft quoted was the fella on talkbass who made bass who swapped a well made alder body or something for a lump of mdf, basswood or a railway sleeper or something (i forget what)- and people couldn't tell the difference.
Which is fine if type of wood is the only thing we are looking at - but the massive lump of wood used was very thick - and therefore stiffer than the the same material at a thinner shape. Like for like shapes we know that the grain structure on alder for instance is very different to ash - and the density of wenge is different to maple - if these things are of different stiffnesses then we should expect some difference - there's a video of Jens Ritter talking about using thinner bodies as the extra flex shortens the sustain giving a sound he wanted....
the top end luthiers seem to go one of three ways - some engage with the woods to try and use them to create a "sound" (warwick a long time ago seemed to do this), the second type seem to use the Alembic approach in creating a mechanically stiff and fairly neutral platform with the woods and use the electronics to create the sound, and the third type are between them and offer all sorts of wood finishes cos they know bass players will buy them!
[quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1413225563' post='2576104']
Well in some ways tires are more like strings - or maybe the speaker cones????

It's not easy when you take an analogy to a ridiculous length... In any case I agree.
The body wood could be compared to the body / chassis of the car. As long as it's not too flexible or brittle the car should work great - at least for a while!
[/quote] unless you are adrian Newey in which case you use the flex in the floor of your car to gain a performance advantage over everyone else...

[BigRedX]

Are they like for like though?

Every piece of wood is different. Plus the majority of single wood bodies these days are made from 2 or 3 pieces glued together. Were the different bodies made from pieces of wood glued together in the same way (same individual sized pieces with the joins in the same place in each of the bodies)? I very much doubt it. Since modern wood glues are supposedly stronger than the actual wood I would have thought that the position of these joins would have a significant effect on the behaviour of the body.