Musky Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I think Kiwi wrote about this a few years back when the plans for the Crossrail development around Tottenham Court Road was announced, but to be honest I didn't think it would happen. The north side of Denmark St consists of 17th century buildings and the 12 Bar Club in particular still has the old forge of the blacksmiths on the site. Whether the current plans are connected to the Crossrail plans or not is somewhat moot however, as there are proposals to redevelop 8 of the buildings leaving only their facades intact. Enterprise Studios will be demolished entirely - perhaps no bad thing but I do happen to use them quite a bit! The proposals do remind me of what happened to Spitalfield Market, where the promise of a brighter, better market simply turned out to be a sterile and anodyne shopping environment for chain stores. Anyhow, I happen to love the 12 Bar Club (and Wunjos) and there's a petition to make Camden council rethink their plans [url="http://www.change.org/p/head-of-democratic-services-don-t-bin-tin-pan-alley"]here[/url]. Please take the time to sign it if you don't want to see what is now perhaps the last West End venue worth a visit disappear. News of the story [url="http://www.kcwtoday.co.uk/news/local-news/hwrvvz3c71.html"]here[/url]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1414787604' post='2593415'] Done... [/quote] Cheers Mark! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I have only been around there once and live no where near it so It really makes no difference to me. But it is always sad to see historic places supposedly made better by modernisation. I am not a fan of modern everywhere. I am signed up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Every 'old' was once 'modern'. [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1414792276' post='2593458'] I don't think you'll find that there is modern everywhere in that part of London. In fact i'd say the modern is far outnumbered by the old. [/quote]Fair enough, but i am not on about that area in particular, just in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Stop all this and sign the bloody petition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1414792394' post='2593461'] Every 'old' was once 'modern'. [/quote] It was probably just a field in the late 1600`s. The 60`s ruined Gloucester with its architecture, Swindon town centre is awful . I much prefer the older style. If it is beyond repair, and not commercially viable, then fine. I just can`t see the point of modernising for the sake of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1414792696' post='2593469'] But if there had never been any 'modern' buildings there would never be any 'old' ones. [/quote] I guess if you want to see it modernised, and have the buildings knocked down, you can set up a petition to get it bulldozed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I like the area, am a Londoner and visit regularly.....i have signed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1414793845' post='2593491'] You guessed wrong but if i did there would be no need to set up a petition to get it bulldozed because that's the plan. [/quote]Then i really see no point in your comments apart from being argumentative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1414792696' post='2593469'] But if there had never been any 'modern' buildings there would never be any 'old' ones. [/quote] This is very true, however what is planned will mean the destruction of the alleys to the rear of Denmark St - the last vestiges of the St Giles rookeries. Moreover it will most likely mean the destruction of what Camden council say they want to preserve, the musical heritage of the area. The concomitant rent increases will put paid to many of the businesses from the day the bulldozers move in. We're more likely to see the emergence of another Starbucks than another Wunjos. It doesn't help that another hotel is planned. Camden council appear to have little recognition of what makes the area 'tick', and promises of buildings fit for 'music industry use' shows no understanding of the difficulties the MI retail sector faces. It doesn't help that the Central St Giles development just a few yards away has trampled over not just rules regarding social housing and public spaces but has provided such poor retail spaces and is totally out of keeping with the area to boot. Th only redeeming factor in this hugely profitable scheme is the promise of an 800 capacity venue to replace the Astoria (capacity 2000 plus the 800 or so LA2). It remains to be seen whether this will be built or fall by the wayside due to commercial pressures, or indeed be taken up as a musical venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1414792394' post='2593461'] Every 'old' was once 'modern'. [/quote] Apart from you. You're not measured in years, your measured in geological stratum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) [quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1414794414' post='2593505'] if that's what you think then perhaps it may be worth you reading again what i said. [/quote]I read the comments.The original poster likes the area and frequents it quite a bit, so i signed up hoping that he can enjoy going there for more years to come. Never thought for a minute my post would be picked apart.I had to check it was General Discussion and not Off Topic. I will learn the hard way i suppose Edited October 31, 2014 by timmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Great post Musky, played the 12 Bar for the first time a couple of weeks ago and agree totally, this street needs to be left alone as much as possible. Not all change is progress, sometimes heritage can be vitally important. The history of some fantastic music across the decades that has gone on in Denmark St must be amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1414795837' post='2593527'] Apart from you. You're not measured in years, your measured in geological stratum. [/quote] Hmm. [size=4]Not sure if I should thank you for setting my youth in the palaeolithic, but you're at least right in that few folks have ever considered me to be 'modern'..! [/size] Edited October 31, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1414798466' post='2593554'] Hmm. Not sure if I should thank you for setting my youth in the palaeolithic, but you're at least right in that few folks have ever considered me to be 'modern'..! [/quote] I think he means 'strata' too, unless he's implying you're just one-layered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1414798823' post='2593558'] I think he means 'strata' too, unless he's implying you're just one-layered. [/quote] I confirm, I am quite definitely '[i]mono-couche[/i]'. Un-splitable, solid through and through, no fission here. Old and crumbly, maybe..? Think 'pudding' rather than '[i]mille-feuilles[/i]'. Edited October 31, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1414798823' post='2593558'] I think he means 'strata' too, unless he's implying you're just one-layered. [/quote] Never you mind what I mean and don't mean. You get to sharpening your axe my boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 [quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1414794507' post='2593513'] I'm not really sure how i feel about the redevelopment. Denmark Street and Tin Pan Alley are nothing like they were when i first went there in the 60s anyway. The whole of London has changed in some way. Some for the good and some bad. I don't know much about what is planned for this area but there must always be room for new buildings otherwise the city just stagnates. I will read the plan before i decide to either sign or not. [/quote] Again, this is very true. I wasn't old enough to go to Denmark St in the 60s but did at the very tail end of the 70s and early 80s. Then it wasn't just about Denmark St but the entire area - music shops were dotted about all over Charing Cross Rd and Shaftesbury Avenue. But this isn't really about the location of a few shops - they'll find somewhere else to trade, even if if it isn't in central London, or they'll go out of business. Perhaps they'll trade online, who knows. For me, as a local lad, it's mostly about the character of the area. The Central St Giles development, just yards away, was supposed to regenerate the area. The council just reneged on agreements and what we're left with is this - You're probably aware of the building, but this is what is supposed to bring more people into the area. What happened was that a few high tech companies moved in (and out again) and the ridiculous double height retail units at the bottom slowly got populated with chain eateries. They're all massive glass fronted barns with acoustics to match. The design of the place means there's no opportunity to install either mezzanines or false ceilings which are sore needed. The more savvy have put in flags in an attempt to disguise the entirely industrial nature of the building. It's barely worth mentioning the Flitcroft church or old coaching inn that used to be the last stopping place of the condemned on the way to Tyburn just opposite, now shadowed by the multi coloured splendour of a high rise workspace. For me it would be a pain to see the disappearance of some old buildings, but they're quite dilapidated. Some interesting music shops would go, but I can always buy online or else frequent the likes of Rose Morris in all it's gleaming multi storey supermarket like wonder. What I can't get to grips with is the loss of the 12 Bar Club, in all it's rock'n'roll like squalour, or indeed the best bass shop in London. Long term, I believe these proposals to be the death knell of not just the buildings affected but of Denmark St as a musical hangout. Starbucks or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougieb Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I live in Scotland but do not agree with this. I know the area well from my youth and it would be a sorry state of affairs if it goes. Petition signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenderjazz1 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Always visit when down. Had good crack with manager of 12 bar club who has family in ashington area of north east. Cheers stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madshadows Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Signed, part of England's musical heritage and should be saved as such John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) mmm-grew up wIth the Marquee (Wardour Street) when one D Bowie was dossing in an ambulance in the mews at the back.....Everything changes...what I thought 'really neat' when I was 17 (meat pie chips & beans at the Ace on Friday night) is merely a memory of something gone... Things move on...things that are 'liked' by the Modern Generation' (like we were forty years ago...) are their memories of 'back in the day'..no-ones right or wrong here - its the march of time - if I want to live in the past I can play my Dennis Brown at OBSCENE volume.....If they flatten the lot, it will eventually re-emerge elsewhere, because if there's a real need, it does...... . Edited November 1, 2014 by taunton-hobbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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