P.A. Advice

[Monckyman]

All good advice, but are any of you any good with sound?
I'm not trying to piss on your parade but you are on the first step of a very long road here, and you can't just buy a good sound.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1416253698' post='2608382']
All good advice, but are any of you any good with sound?
I'm not trying to piss on your parade but you are on the first step of a very long road here, and you can't just buy a good sound.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Learn about live sound first and then you'll know what you need to get the sound you want.

[JTUK]

For vox only... you basically just need to EQ the voice reasonably but it helps if the singer
knows what makes his voice sound good.
The trick to a good band sound, IMO, is to start with good core sounds per man, and that way you are just sorting
levels ..which is way easier and QUICKER than trying to EQ the thing.

The bigger problem, IME, is who do you get to learn from as a man with a P.A for hire may not be the best reference.
Out of all the P.A's we might hire during a year, we get a result from about 50% of them or less, and the reason I feel able to say that
is that I record all our gigs and the best recordings are ALL with our own self monitored P.A.

[paulbass]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1416253698' post='2608382']
All good advice, but are any of you any good with sound?
I'm not trying to piss on your parade but you are on the first step of a very long road here, and you can't just buy a good sound.
[/quote]
Your right about not being able to just buy a good sound. Playing in bands for nearly 30 years has taught me that but it has been a long time since i got involved with buying pa's and today there is so much choice to suit every budget its mind boggling!. Theres been some very good advice and tips on this thread which i'm grateful for.
In previous bands that i've been in i was the one that did the sound checks and although i've been with this band for 3 years its the first one i've been in that uses a sound engineer.As you will know every venue sounds different so i always go out the front to ensure i'm happy with the sound of the bass and it sits right in the mix for peace of mind. The engineer does tend to consult me about the final mix as im usually out the front. Of course if we play at festivals you got to trust the engineers working at that event...shame you cant hear yourself from the front at those events!

[paulbass]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416260791' post='2608510'] For vox only... you basically just need to EQ the voice reasonably but it helps if the singer knows what makes his voice sound good. The trick to a good band sound, IMO, is to start with good core sounds per man, and that way you are just sorting levels ..which is way easier and QUICKER than trying to EQ the thing. The bigger problem, IME, is who do you get to learn from as a man with a P.A for hire may not be the best reference. Out of all the P.A's we might hire during a year, we get a result from about 50% of them or less, and the reason I feel able to say that is that I record all our gigs and the best recordings are ALL with our own self monitored P.A. [/quote]
This makes sense and i completely agree

[paulbass]

[quote name='bassfunk' timestamp='1416232088' post='2608103']
We use a pair of Mackie SRM450 tops and a Mackie Sub. We have 3 wharfedale monitors, I'm on wired IEM and the Keys is on wireless IEM. The Mackies are sometimes a little harsh sounding as said above but they do the job and ensure the vocals can be heard in the mix. They're not overly heavy and the earlier ones are supposed to be more reliable. It saves having to buy power amps and crossovers etc.

One vocalist I know has some RCF active tops. They're a bit 'smoother' sounding than our Mackies and would probably go for them if I had a choice.

As JTUK has said QSC are nice but if you're only doing pubs can you really justify the extra expense? 2nd hand Active speakers that haven't been battered are the way to go IMHO for the kind of gigs you're doing. If you get more/bigger gigs and want to upgrade you can turn your current tops into monitors.
[/quote]
Thanks bass funk, we would only need them for pub gigs and your right, we couldnt justify the extra expense. Thats my thinking exactly.The bigger gigs we play tend to have their own engineer with a pa so thats not a problem.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416260791' post='2608510']...the reason I feel able to say that is that I record all our gigs and the best recordings are ALL with our own self monitored P.A.
[/quote]

Slightly off-topic (but only slightly...),and a bit long-winded (sorry..!), but I've an anecdote to illustrate why this is not necessarily a Good Thing.
The year..? '78-'79-ish. I was the technician in a music shop here in France; we sold, amongst other things, PA systems. We had a big order from a local dance band who wished to upgrade. They wanted an Allen & Heath desk, Cerwin Vega FOH, Altec amps etc. A big set-up at the time, and not rubbish. Off they went for their 1st w/e with the lot. They were on the doorstep Tuesday morning, early, furious (Monday was our 'closed' day...). "What's up, lads..?" "It's lousy, we couldn't get a decent sound all w/e..!. There's something wrong with it". OK, we load it all back into the workshop and I give it a check-up (it's all new, but one never knows...). No problems, all works fine. I can't fault it. Back into the truck it goes. Next w/e it's again used, and the Tuesday, they're here again, very, very annoyed. "*$%£§!..." and other fancy French terms come into play. Some, I couldn't understand, but I certainly got the gist; they were not satisfied. Into the workshop, most of the day is spent putting it all through its paces. Nothing. Nowt. Nada. It works and performs faultlessly. Back into the truck.
Inspiration is what is required now, and comes in the form of a proposition by me to go with them next w/e, to see what they're doing [i]in situ[/i] with the gear. The Saturday, I'm off with them in the tour bus, and we set it all up at the venue. They go through their sound check, and I have to agree with them; the sound is dreadful..! What the .....!
I look at the desk, and see where the trouble lies.
Flashback : their previous sound system was a robust but elderly Montarbo 'all-in-one' sheet metal 'suitcase' mixer-amp. Very 'Italian', and with limited facilities, but including a built-in spring reverb. Their way of squeezing the most from this erstwhile antique was to turn absolutely everything to its maximum. This 'technique' they had translated to the Allen & Heath. Everything was cranked all the way up. Everything: gain, aux sends, eq, the lot. No wonder it sounded bad..!
I took over the controls, and wound it all back to 'neutral'. The sound return to 'quality'. Even this, though, did not satisfy the band, especially Danny, the leader (who was paying for all of this...). There, the solution was a bit more 'long-term' in coming. His ears having been accustomed for so long to having the 'Montarbo' sound as his reference, the 'clean as a whistle' quality of the Cerwin rig was not flattering his voice and playing. It took several weeks before they finally came round to appreciating this, and admitting that the system was fine; they now realised that there was a huge leap in quality between 'before' and 'after'.
All this to say that we have, each of us, our own references as to what constitutes a good sound, especially in the diverse situations of live bands in differing venues. What is 'clear' to one is 'toppy' to another, and so on. Experience, preferably wide experience, is the answer, and humility. A big dose of humility. Don't trust your own ears, alone, unless you've both of these qualities.
Sorry for the length and verbosity; hope it was worth it.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Dad3353

[Owen]

I did a gig last week with a pair of QSC KW112 and KW118 (or whatever the 18" subs are called). They were bonkersly loud and held it together all the way. I was hugely impressed. The SRM450 are not in the same class (but not in the the same price bracket). They can get harsh when pushed but a bit of taming at 8Khz always made them a bit easier on the ear. They run out of headroom before you think they should, especially if you get tempted to chuck any LF into them. The reality is that they are old tech by now and I feel absolutely sure that anything more recent with some DSP in there would be significantly better.

[PaulWarning]

we use a Yamaha EMX 512SC mixer amp a couple of Whafedale titans and a cheapo monitor, plenty good enough for your average pub gig, usually just lead vocal and two backing vocals, occasionally we'll mic up the snare, bass drum and guitar, but not very often

[JTUK]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1416267118' post='2608604']
I did a gig last week with a pair of QSC KW112 and KW118 (or whatever the 18" subs are called). They were bonkersly loud and held it together all the way. I was hugely impressed. The SRM450 are not in the same class (but not in the the same price bracket). They can get harsh when pushed but a bit of taming at 8Khz always made them a bit easier on the ear. They run out of headroom before you think they should, especially if you get tempted to chuck any LF into them. The reality is that they are old tech by now and I feel absolutely sure that anything more recent with some DSP in there would be significantly better.
[/quote]

I think newer DSP's have got close to the QSC's..and some prefer the new tech, our singer included, but QSC remain the reference for me.
You are trading off something if you go Yam, EV etc... but I don't think there is much in the K12's and others, in our experience,
If you are using tops only and want the extra bass capability LOUD, then the KW12's are probably the way to go.
The real difference of these things from our POV is how well they go loud....but again we spec'd a pr of DXR12's with a DSR12 sub as the default min rig
and we think those 3 boxes out perform a pr of KW12's on their own. The money is about the same for the 2 rigs.

As always, what can you spend, what can you carry and rig..??

[JTUK]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416264940' post='2608589']
...............................
All this to say that we have, each of us, our own references as to what constitutes a good sound, especially in the diverse situations of live bands in differing venues. What is 'clear' to one is 'toppy' to another, and so on. Experience, preferably wide experience, is the answer, and humility. A big dose of humility. Don't trust your own ears, alone, unless you've both of these qualities.
Sorry for the length and verbosity; hope it was worth it.
[/quote]

Agreed, ..what we have found though the difference in recordings 'quality' is not even close...
One of our show piece gigs with hired-in P.A is unlistenable to me... whereas I quite enjoy most of our self mix efforts.
The device I use is a Zoom Q2 and it works fine....
For engr'd efforts I place the dev as near as possible to the desk but you can't specify a certain engr as around here
the P.A's companies hire the kit first and then sub the gig out to freelance engrs. It has gotten so critical that
we now find the engr ourselves and get them to book the P.A... but sometimes this might mean the engr getting a gig
that the P.A company had last year and the P.A company assumes the engr has undercut the gig so this becomes
'difficult'..but finding a good engr has become the issue. Not many of them can supply upward of Nexo type spec
so they dry hire from the few companies that have that sort of kit. It needs to be local-ish so you don't get silly mileage charges
and therefore becomes a small world...

[spacey]

Be careful with Wharfdale Neo drivers, I do some repairs on PA gear and I have quite a collection of these Neo drivers all with the same fault, the magnet is not bolted in straight, the bolt has been cross threaded and the magnet gap is smaller at the top than the bottom.
As soon as any power goes through, the driver gets stuck and wont go back in.
Most bizarre basic quality control issue.
You can not even re-cone them.

[mrtcat]

We just picked up a used pair of powered RCF ART322 A's for £300. The 2 inch hf driver makes them much smoother than the 1 inch version and they wipe the floor with the Mackie's at volume. If you want to go LOUD add sub(s) but for most small pubs / venues they're great and with subs they're lovely.
My advice with RCF's is always go for the ones with 2 inch hf drivers (322, 325, 422 etc etc)

[Dan Dare]

Having been through the jointly owned PA minefield, I'd strongly advise that each band member buys/owns the constituent parts individually - one owns the mixer, one the tops and so on. That way if someone leaves, they take their item with them and no arguments about buying them out, value etc. At worse, if you split up and sell a complete PA to share out the proceeds, you can lose a lot of money. Been there, done that. Am fortunate in owning my own complete rig these days - decided to buy to avoid another loss. Gets me gigs, too. I'm a crap player, but people hire me for my kit

[gadgie]

We have an old PV copy powered mixer...(a "pod" or something) playing through some old SX200 EV speakers using SM58's. To be honest no one has complained about the Vocals, and it all sound clear and crisp to me. saying that, I've not played through a big dollar set up.
I also have a pair of concentric Tannoys which sound ace, but quite a bit bigger than the EV's

[paulbass]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1416425468' post='2610128']
Having been through the jointly owned PA minefield, I'd strongly advise that each band member buys/owns the constituent parts individually - one owns the mixer, one the tops and so on. That way if someone leaves, they take their item with them and no arguments about buying them out, value etc. At worse, if you split up and sell a complete PA to share out the proceeds, you can lose a lot of money. Been there, done that. Am fortunate in owning my own complete rig these days - decided to buy to avoid another loss. Gets me gigs, too. I'm a crap player, but people hire me for my kit
[/quote]
If only i had this advice when i first started! I'd have a complete pa by now it does make sense to buy your own when you consider all the money you spend on them over the years with other bands.

[TimR]

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1416487983' post='2610709']
We have an old PV copy powered mixer...(a "pod" or something)
...
[/quote]

Phonic Powerpod.

[Deep Thought]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416515453' post='2611126']


Phonic Powerpod.
[/quote]

We had one of those (I still have it as I bought it). Did the trick pretty well as a vocals-only setup. We now have a Dynacord PA which is much more capable but we're still getting to grips with it.

[TimR]

Those box things were fairly standard in the late 90s. Don't know if they still are. I'm guessing fader style mixers are cheaper now.

Peavey, yamaha, phonic, behringer etc. All did pretty much the same thing.

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416587206' post='2611733']

Peavey, yamaha, phonic, behringer etc. All did pretty much the same thing.
[/quote]

All WERE pretty much the same thing, iirc...parts-wise, and throw in Mackie as well,