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3Leaf/Spencer selling Darkglass prototypes?


Kev
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I know this hasn't really been discussed here too much, and probably for the best that it hasn't, but Doug at Darkglass and Spencer of 3Leaf have had something of a fallout and all Darkglass production is now back in Finland. However, what are peoples thoughts on the situation developing on Doug's Facebook page?

Spencer is selling a number of 'prototype' Darkglass pedals on his page, advertising them as part of a Black Friday sale deal. Surely it is not legal for a company to sell these without the consent of Darkglass, unless 3Leaf actually purchased these pedals rather than just built them? It seems rather controversial and an interesting move for Spencer to make, who would be the legal owner of these protoypes? I have a lot of respect for Doug and Darkglass in general and it and has made me think twice about ordering 3Leaf's new octave pedal.

[size=2]Please keep the discussion to selling the pedals, any personal fallout between Doug and Spencer probably isn't really for public discussion.[/size]

Edited by Kev
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[quote name='Cameronj279' timestamp='1417635121' post='2622559']
Just been on the 3 Leaf Audio page and it seems that they are selling (or should I say have already sold) one of the Darkglass on-board preamps. Shady dealing in my book.

[/quote]

Yes, and they are not even on sale from Darkglass yet.

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Sounds to my very un-legally trained brain, like a complex international intellectual property rights / copyright issue. If the guy from 3leaf is selling a pedal not of his own design and can be proved to be a copy of a design from darkglass then he's in very murky water. This will probably depend also what paperwork was signed between the two with regards who can sell what and who owns what with regards to blueprints designs etc. and what 3leaf's license to produce covered.

Given what just happened with the whole Vertex/BBE saga, you'd have thought someone who quite clearly can make great pedals would want to be staying as squeaky clean as possible.

Obviously suing someone internationally will probably be a lot more expensive so let's hope they can just work it out.

It goes without saying I know no facts in this case and am only speculating with questions and not deforming anyone's character, just hope they see sense before they damage each other.

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on a side note i remembered looking up this video when i was looking at getting a B7K and was wondering why there were different US and Finland versions. Thought this guy sounded like he was putting down the Finland made pedals and thought that was odd as surely the ones made in Finland would be how Darkglass want them.... he does sound a bit up his backside so not surprised they had a falling out if he was building under license but then putting down the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u02mNByC3s

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If Spencer made a bunch of prototypes to test different finishes out for Doug while they were still working together, with his own time and materials, what is he supposed to do with them? They cost him time and money to build so why not sell them on. Are those complaining saying he should destroy them or give them away for free?

On the other hand, if he is still building them and selling what would be deemed as counterfeits, then that's not on. But since you can't copyright a circuit, people clone pedals and sell them all over the place. Just look at Behringer.

Edited by dannybuoy
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[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1417643466' post='2622674']
If Spencer made a bunch of prototypes to test different finishes out for Doug while they were still working together, with his own time and materials, what is he supposed to do with them? They cost him time and money to build so why not sell them on. Are those complaining saying he should destroy them or give them away for free?

[/quote]

I agree with this but there is definitely more to it as he appears to have been selling the NG-2 Preamps which Darkglass currently haven't put on sale yet.

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he could offer them to darkglass if they're still on speaking terms and just ask for compensation for the time effort / materials he put into making them. If they aren't on this level it doesn't mean he can just sell something he's not supposed to sell. whenever a business partnership dissolves people lose money in wasted stock. the law is still the law whether you built it or not. obviously if he's still allowed to sell these items because he built them, then fair play to him, but it seems darkglass aren't too happy about it....

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[quote]
[color=#666666][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3] It's the only way we can guarantee you're not getting illegally produced counterfeit by unscrupulous individuals.[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

think this gives a view into Doug's mind about how he views what is going on...

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When Doug & Spencer started working together, this would have all been covered in the contract signed by both of them I imagine (if not, they're both a bit silly).
As such, I highly doubt Spencer is doing anything 'illegal', why would you put your business at risk?! Although morals are another subject entirely.

Interestingly, the new Finnish Darkglass pedals still seem to have the relay bypass added by 3Leaf when Spencer started making the B3K. I wonder if the Finnish relay is that design or a new one ;)

Si

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Spencer is a smart guy and I doubt he'd do anything to harm the legitimacy of his business. That said, it is possibly somewhat in poor taste.

As far as I understood it when 3Leaf/DG started collaborating Spencer helped redesign the B3K and B7K so I don't know exactly where it places him in the whole affair.

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[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1417647324' post='2622755']
When Doug & Spencer started working together, this would have all been covered in the contract signed by both of them I imagine (if not, they're both a bit silly).
As such, I highly doubt Spencer is doing anything 'illegal', why would you put your business at risk?! Although morals are another subject entirely.

Interestingly, the new Finnish Darkglass pedals still seem to have the relay bypass added by 3Leaf when Spencer started making the B3K. I wonder if the Finnish relay is that design or a new one ;)

Si
[/quote]

It's a new switch design :) I had 3 of the 3leaf switches fail on me so it's a welcome change and its a nicer switch too :)

Unless there was an odd term in their contract, which there may have been, the prototypes are the property of Darkglass and should have been returned to them. Selling the prototype preamp is the real killer here.

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[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1418130123' post='2627111']
Why didn't I read this thread 4 hours ago... :(

I just bought a USA made B3K and could have got the Finish one, after reading about all this and now being informed I wish I'd backed the Finish one!
[/quote]

Unless you bought one of the prototypes direct from 3Leaf, the old stock USA built versions are still profiting Darkglass since they just outsourced the manufacture to the US for a period.

However, a good reason to get the newer one is because it has a tweak to the 'attack' control. Instead of flat/boost1/boost2, it now has flat/boost/cut, very useful I reckon as I found the B3K I had too bright and might've kept it if it'd had a treble cut option.

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[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1418132414' post='2627148']
Unless you bought one of the prototypes direct from 3Leaf, the old stock USA built versions are still profiting Darkglass since they just outsourced the manufacture to the US for a period.

However, a good reason to get the newer one is because it has a tweak to the 'attack' control. Instead of flat/boost1/boost2, it now has flat/boost/cut, very useful I reckon as I found the B3K I had too bright and might've kept it if it'd had a treble cut option.
[/quote]

Thanks for that mate, appreciated.

I'm hoping that the extra treble might work in my favour, I'm using it with flats mostly and want it to be nice and bright. If I can't handle the trebs I'll swap it over as you've now pointed that out.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey, I just saw this thread! I'm not here to talk about my personal and my company's legal issues with 3leaf or anyone else but to clarify a few things that need clarifying:

The new Finnish pedals have soft switching but using FETs instead of relays mainly because I didn't want to use technology that wasn't developed by myself in any Darkglass pedals (all the layouts were redesigned from scratch as well), but also because it seems to be the most reliable option at the moment: by now we've put out over 1000 pedals since the summer when we started manufacturing in Finland and have had literally zero failures yet.
This also allowed me to implement a few upgrades that were long overdue (like the addition of the Cut option on the new b3k's attack switch).

Also, I appreciate Kev'a sentiment for sharing this and doing what he thought was helping me correct a wrong but the truth is that regardless of the legitimacy of the sales, I should have kept the matter private and dealt with it professionally.
Whether or not I was in my right to be very upset at that situation, truth is that involving the world, and specially resoritng to insults wasn't precisely professional and I regret that for sure (all though I can't honestly say I regret speaking up to what I believe was an injustice, but I could have handled myself better).
I think it's also important to clarify that all the Darkglass circuits were designed entirely by me (Doug), the way it worked before is that I would come up with the circuits and 3leaf would design a layout that would best accommodate his assembly preferences.
But all Darkglass products always have been designed from scratch here in Helsinki.
Also, this whole unpleasant thing seems to be over: apparently all the leftover stock has been sold so now I just want to learn the lessons from past mistakes, move and on and keep working on kicking ass next year.
Falling outs happen in business all the time and I've learned so very much from all this bitter drama, but I'm very pleased and happy with the work we are doing in Finland.
We shattered our most optimistic forecasts so the future looks very bright and exciting, just he way it should be.

I appreciate all the support shown here, if not directly to me, to what some of you feel is morally right (there can be a big gap between laws and morals), it means a lot but I would appreciate if we could all move on. I certainly have, and I hope the other party does too.

Thanks again for the interest, and support! It means a lot for sure.
Merry Christmas to everyone!

Regards,
Doug.

Edited by Darkglass
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+1 also glad to hear all's well at Darkglass HQ, guess I got my B3K (from Bassdirect) earlier this year before production went back to Helsinki ... maybe I'll just have to buy another ... still the best dirt pedal I've ever heard / used :)

Thanks for making it Doug !

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