Modes

[AntLockyer]

Wonderful. Thanks.

[72deluxe]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452099710' post='2946412']A good exercise would be to write down the I, IV and V chords for each mode (the Locrian is a bit fiddly, but worth the effort). [/quote]

It is all coming together very slowly in my tiny brain, but you lost me there - what is my exercise here?


I did dig out a PDF I downloaded ages ago ([url="http://gustavolopezsegura.com/Docs/Bass_Scales_And_Arpeggios.pdf"]http://gustavolopezs...d_Arpeggios.pdf[/url]) and this ties up with what Jay said above. On the D Dorian scale page (page 12), it shows Dm7 as the arpeggio, which could also be read as a chord, right? I get that the extended chord you mentioned has all of the same notes in it as the scale (but not necessarily in the same order).

As an exercise I downloaded iReal Pro and put in a repeating C major chord and tried the modes over that (just D dorian and E phrygian so far) and they fit (obviously because they have the same notes) but putting a triad (or playing a chord constructed of the triads) of each mode over them still fits and sounds right.

But I am a little stuck at understanding why Dm7 is used over D Dorian: is it because the triad of the (1st), 3rd and 5th notes from the D dorian scale have an extra 7th from the dorian scale added to make the full chord? You could get away with not playing the 7th too, correct?
Also, IIm7 for Dorian (as listed at the top of the page in the PDF) and IIIm7 : what should I read that as in English? In my head I am breaking IIm7 down as "C major scale, but starting on the second note of the C major scale (the II bit) ..." but then get lost there.

I hope these questions make sense!

EDIT: I read up on Wikipedia's page on Harmony and see that a C7 chord is the first, third, fifth and flattened seventh, as it includes a Bb, which is the seventh note of the C major scale that has been flattened.
If someone could explain the Dm7 above in relation to this, that'd help. If I play the Dm7 triad (F, A, C) it sounds major to me so I am not understanding the "m".

Edited January 6, 2016 by 72deluxe

[AntLockyer]

The quality of the chords in a Major scale go

major minor minor major major minor diminished

So C Major scale the I chord is C Major, the II D Minor, III E Minor etc.
For D dorian the I chord is D minor, the II E Minor etc.

It is just the same but shifted to the right one and that is because the notes you use to create the chords can only come from the scale. That was my realisation today. Using just the white notes on a piano and skipping 1 each time to get the 3rd and 5th you can't end up with anything other than you did when you did it for the scales.

MY advice would be to learn this http://www.bassology.net/lessons/lesson3.html

[72deluxe]

Thanks for the link. The gulf in my understanding is starting to become extremely apparent, and I am lost. Time to visit my library of books and struggle my way through them.

[leftybassman392]

Strictly speaking the last triad is a minor flat5, which is actually ambiguous (when you add the 7th you get a min7b5 {BDFA} - sometimes called a half-diminished - chord, rather than a full diminished chord {BDFAb}). Picky little technical point, but otherwise all good.

In summary, these are the standard triads for the major scale and it's modes. They're all available in all the modal scales (although which ones you use most depends which scale you're using of course).

ETA: For completeness, the 4-note chords go:

Maj7, Min7, Min7, Maj7, Dom7, Min7, Min7b5

Edited January 6, 2016 by leftybassman392

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452121032' post='2946814']


It is all coming together very slowly in my tiny brain, but you lost me there - what is my exercise here?


I did dig out a PDF I downloaded ages ago ([url="http://gustavolopezsegura.com/Docs/Bass_Scales_And_Arpeggios.pdf"]http://gustavolopezs...d_Arpeggios.pdf[/url]) and this ties up with what Jay said above. On the D Dorian scale page (page 12), it shows Dm7 as the arpeggio, which could also be read as a chord, right? I get that the extended chord you mentioned has all of the same notes in it as the scale (but not necessarily in the same order).

As an exercise I downloaded iReal Pro and put in a repeating C major chord and tried the modes over that (just D dorian and E phrygian so far) and they fit (obviously because they have the same notes) but putting a triad (or playing a chord constructed of the triads) of each mode over them still fits and sounds right.

But I am a little stuck at understanding why Dm7 is used over D Dorian: is it because the triad of the (1st), 3rd and 5th notes from the D dorian scale have an extra 7th from the dorian scale added to make the full chord? You could get away with not playing the 7th too, correct?
Also, IIm7 for Dorian (as listed at the top of the page in the PDF) and IIIm7 : what should I read that as in English? In my head I am breaking IIm7 down as "C major scale, but starting on the second note of the C major scale (the II bit) ..." but then get lost there.

I hope these questions make sense!

EDIT: I read up on Wikipedia's page on Harmony and see that a C7 chord is the first, third, fifth and flattened seventh, as it includes a Bb, which is the seventh note of the C major scale that has been flattened.
If someone could explain the Dm7 above in relation to this, that'd help. If I play the Dm7 triad (F, A, C) it sounds major to me so I am not understanding the "m".
[/quote]

Ok, for starters, delete that PDF from your hard drive. It's misleading in the usual "modal confusion" kind of way and much of the information is just downright incorrect. It also shares a similar root to your own confusion with the issue - you' e got things back to front. You don't use a Dm7 chord over D Dorian: you can use D Dorian over a Dm7 chord.

Chords/Harmony come first!

Basic functional harmony from a harmonised major scale:
Imaj7
IIm7
IIIm7
IVmaj7
V7
VIm7
VIIm7b5 (NOT DIMINISHED!!!!)

The V7 chord is built on the 5th degree of the major scale. That's where the flattened 7th comes from. In Cmajor that would be G7. This kind of 7th chord is known as a dominant 7th - chord V7 moving to chord Imaj in a key is one of the most integral harmonic resolutions in Western music.

It's really important to realise that chords and harmony come first and dictate or inform your choice of scale to fit them. I'm the above example of eg, G7 in the key of C, then that G7 would take the Mixolydian scale as a primary option (which is also the mode built from chord V's root)... HOWEVER....that doesn't mean for all dominant 7th chords we just play mixolydian - a common misnomer and one put forward by the PDF you shared. It depends on the harmonic context and function of the chord in question. That's a whole different topic.

In essence, scales generally work over particular chords because they contain the notes of those chords within them. Sometimes they are also the 7th chord plus upper extensions (as detailed previously). If you're playing jazz etc, then the harmonic progression will guide your choices: if you're jamming over an E7 chord; different possible scale choices are really just ways of decorating the chord tones.

In terms of the triad you were playing on the Dm7; you were playing F, A, C - an Fmajor triad. So yeah! Sounds major. Over the D root it spells out the rest of the chord so sounds fine in context.

Edited January 7, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[tinyd]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452121032' post='2946814']
Also, IIm7 for Dorian (as listed at the top of the page in the PDF) and IIIm7 : what should I read that as in English? In my head I am breaking IIm7 down as "C major scale, but starting on the second note of the C major scale (the II bit) ..." but then get lost there.

[/quote]

I can't really expand on any of the other great answers that you've received, but for the specific point above, when you're playing over a ii-chord (minor 7) you usually think Dorian. The fact that it contains the same notes as the major scale a tone lower is helpful for understanding the overall harmony of the tune (and for learning the notes of the scale), but it's not necessarily helpful when you're actually playing the tune. So it's better to learn the different modes and treat them as independent scales but keep the knowledge of their relationships in mind. What tends to happen is that as you progress you'll start playing patterns and lines that work over multiple chords anyway (you can find tons of material on playing over ii-V-I progressions, for example).

The other thing that I found confusing when learning this stuff was "if the notes of all the modes are the same, why can't I just play any of the modes over any of the chords derived from that key?". There are two simple answers that come to mind

1) Not all of the notes sound particularly good when emphasised over a particular chord e.g. hold down an F (the fourth) over a C Major chord,

2) It's your job as a bass player to outline the harmony of the tune so your lines should place emphasis on the strong tones of each chord so that other players and listeners know where they are.

As with everything in music, there are no hard and fast rules which must always be obeyed, and the above two are only guidelines - there are tons of examples where they're broken and better musicians than me break them all the time to create tension and excitement.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tinyd

[72deluxe]

Thanks for the answers.

"scales generally work over particular chords because they contain the notes of those chords within them."

And does that relate to the construction of the V7 chord? Is that because it is made up of the notes of the mixolydian mode, as the fifth degree of a C major scale is G, so you construct the chord from the mixolydian mode (G (first), B (third), D (fifth), F(seventh))?

You mention that you could use different scales over a progression (eg you mention an E7 chord). If the only notes that fit over a chord are the ones that are in the mode related to the chord or the notes in the chord, how can you break away from that and say that you can use different scales? How do you know what do use? Is it just by ear and hoping it works through trial and error?

I get from this that you learn chords first and then the modes that fit over them, yes?
tinyd, that was the question I have. Your two reasons make sense, particularly the first so thanks.

[tinyd]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452164381' post='2947097']

tinyd, that was the question I have. Your two reasons make sense, particularly the first so thanks.
[/quote]

Glad that helped. One thing to note is that what sounds good is a very subjective thing and you should always let your ears guide you. I'm quoting the Jazz Theory Book here from memory, but he says something like "in some cases, playing an F over a C Major chord might be a great choice". So it's ultimately all about context, and taste. And what's more, taste can change over time so what might have sounded harsh and dissonant to you a year ago might sound pretty good now.

[72deluxe]

Ah so whilst learning the rules, I am also free to ignore the rules if I want to sound "clashing" or "add tension"? That doesn't really help encourage learning the rules!

[tinyd]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452165210' post='2947112']
Ah so whilst learning the rules, I am also free to ignore the rules if I want to sound "clashing" or "add tension"? That doesn't really help encourage learning the rules!
[/quote]

I think that learning rules so that you can (selectively) break them is a good way to look at it - IMO most great music happens at that boundary between the 'rules' and whatever else is going on in the brain of the musician. Too far one way and you're listening to an aimless mess, and too far the other way and the music is safe and uninteresting. What's great is that we all have a different idea of where this boundary lies.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1452166315' post='2947134']
I think that learning rules so that you can (selectively) break them is a good way to look at it - IMO most great music happens at that boundary between the 'rules' and whatever else is going on in the brain of the musician. Too far one way and you're listening to an aimless mess, and too far the other way and the music is safe and uninteresting. What's great is that we all have a different idea of where this boundary lies.
[/quote]

It's like treading a fine line between Ornette Coleman and Michael Buble.

Edited January 7, 2016 by EliasMooseblaster

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452164381' post='2947097']
Thanks for the answers.

"scales generally work over particular chords because they contain the notes of those chords within them."

And does that relate to the construction of the V7 chord? Is that because it is made up of the notes of the mixolydian mode, as the fifth degree of a C major scale is G, so you construct the chord from the mixolydian mode (G (first), B (third), D (fifth), F(seventh))?

You mention that you could use different scales over a progression (eg you mention an E7 chord). If the only notes that fit over a chord are the ones that are in the mode related to the chord or the notes in the chord, how can you break away from that and say that you can use different scales? How do you know what do use? Is it just by ear and hoping it works through trial and error?

I get from this that you learn chords first and then the modes that fit over them, yes?
tinyd, that was the question I have. Your two reasons make sense, particularly the first so thanks.
[/quote]

A dominant 7th chord is a dominant 7th chord. It's basic makeup/formula is the same wherever it occurs. It's not made from the Mixolydian mode - strictly speaking Functional Harmony is a harmonised major scale. If we're talking chord V7 in a particular key, then I understand where you're getting that from - but there are other dominant 7ths which often crop up in a key (depending on the style of music). In the key of C, it's not uncommon to find C7, F7, Bb7, D7, E7, A7, B7, Eb7, Db7 etc cropping up in Jazz or often in Bach as well. Without getting into what the usual Harmonic function of these chords is; hopefully it's obvious that they can't all be made from G Mixolydian.


Ok, there's always options. To clarify: if you're playing a chord progression in a particular key, that will suggest certain chord scale choices. If you're playing over a static chord (like a jam on one chord) things are naturally more open.
Take E7 for example:
It's the V7 chord in the key of Amajor. Mixolydian will be the most obvious and "safest", consonant-sounding choice. There's also the dreaded "modal" relationship.
Maybe it's E7 in the key of C and it moves to an Amin chord... This would make it V7/VI in terms of Harmony; meaning it's functioning as a Dominant of chord VI. We call this a Secondary Dominant. Play Emin to Amin on piano or guitar; then play E7 to Amin - that 7th chord really wants to go somewhere! That's why it works. Back to the E7 in the key of C...it only introduces one note (G#) from outside the key (notes of Cmajor). If you played E Mixolydian you'd introduce F# and C# as well. Change those notes to F natural and C natural and you have a different scale. Also, adding the 9th, 11th and 13th to the E7 (using notes from the key of C) gives you the same scale. E Phrygian Major or Mixolydian b9b13. It also happens to be the 5th mode of A Harmonic Minor - and that E7 was travelling to an Aminor chord. A nice wee mathematical tie-up and the most basic and consonant scale choice in context.
Sorry if that all seems complex; but I'm trying to get the point across that you can't really separate scales from chords and harmonic context. There are always options over and above the obvious and primary choices - there's absolutely nothing stopping you from using E Altered or E Half/Whole Diminished over both of the above examples, depending on context. Going for it on a Jazz tune or hip Metal shred, maybe. On a nice wee Pop song, perhaps not so much!

If we're essentially jamming on an E7 then there are loads of options:
Mixolydian ("straight" or with b13 and b9 variants)
Altered
Half/Whole Diminished
Bebop Dominant
Blues Scale
Another Bluesy one whose name(s) escapes me, but starting on C would be C, D, Eb, Enat, G, A Bb, C.
Etc etc...
In an ideal world the pianist or guitarist might be hip to what you're playing and react accordingly.

The single most important piece of advice I could give you, or anyone else reading this thread is:

FORGET ABOUT MODES!!

There's so much incoherent, incorrect and confusing information out there peddled by folk who don't really understand Harmony and Scale relationships: or function to any significant degree within music which requires them to have all this stuff internalised and used intuitively rather than existing as "Theory".

With so much bad info out there, it's safer to ignore modes altogether.

To reiterate:

FORGET ABOUT MODES!! They're a junk concept that have virtually no bearing on how music functions and are of almost no practical application.
(This isn't strictly true, but with the amount of confusion and crap educational material out there about them, I think it's the safest option)

Learn about chords. Learn about scales. Forget that modes even exist. Have I said that already...?

[leftybassman392]

I've just scanned the last few posts without looking too closely since it appeared that many of the responses to questions were largely duplicating mine...

However (and in response to the question that was asked about the dominant chord in the Dorian scale), harmonic orthodoxy has the dominant chord at the fourth (G7 over D Dorian). Folks may recall me saying that each of the modal scales has it's own character? Well, part of the character of the Dorian scale is to have the Dominant chord at the fourth degree (and the m7b5 at the sixth degree while I'm at it). When you choose different start points from a single parent scale you're still using the original notes; and that means that all the original chords are still in the same places they were before you made the chance. Using C major as the parent scale, the chord at G will still be a dominant chord irrespective of where it comes in the new sequence. This is standard music theory, even if you don't want to talk about modes.

[spoiler] While I'm on the subject, I disagree with urging people to forget about modes. It's a very useful piece of music theory, and knowing how they work is an important element in teaching the subject. Once you know how they work, you're surely in a much better position to decide when to step outside the orthodox structure. SHOUTING ABOUT IT doesn't make it any more or less true than it already was. There are certainly people who simply don't believe in modes (something else I said at a very early stage), but for many it's a useful little tool to have in your armoury. I have no intention of getting into a pissing contest about it as I don't teach any more and don't feel the need to impress anybody, but I'm not sure how screaming at the OP to forget about it is helping him - surely it's better to guide him through it and let him decide for himself. Don't you think?[/spoiler]

Dominant chord variations is actually a pretty big subject in it's own right, especially if you're thinking about going down the Jazz route. Probably best to treat them separately from this stuff.

[The Jaywalker]

You misunderstand, Lefty. As a pro musician and teacher, I obviously understand about modes etc.
What I'm urging people to shy away from is the rock/pop notion that music theory=modes; that they are where it's at and that because they are the same notes you can play Phrygian on a major chord and it's awesome. It's that musical junk that confuses people - and it's peddled by alleged experts in the field as well. As for shouting? I forgot that's what upper case implies on a forum - I'm kinda old-fashioned and intended it as emphasis.
In practical terms, how many times have I used my knowledge of how modes work on a pop music gig/session/tune over the years? Probably none.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452091383' post='2946281']
I am mainly hung up on the fact that the actual notes played are all [i]identical[/i] between the modes. If a song is in E minor, I know I can play G major over the top and they are identical notes. This is a mode, surely?.
[/quote]

In short, no its isn't. Its just E minor, because the song chords and melody imply a key center of E minor, it only becomes a "mode" if the implied key center aligns with the starting note. It only becomes G major if key centre is G.

Really the best thing is to kind of ignore modal scale derivation mechanics and just treat each one as a scale in its own right - e.g. Dorian is minor scale with natural 6th and that described its harmonic properties, the fact that its also the same notes as some other major scale is mostly irrelevant.

Edited January 8, 2016 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452182787' post='2947378']
Using C major as the parent scale, the chord at G will still be a dominant chord irrespective of where it comes in the new sequence. This is standard music theory, even if you don't want to talk about modes.
[/quote]

I don't really buy this, the V chord is "dominant" because its 3rd is the leading note (7th) of the key, not because it contains a b7th. This is also why we have a harmonic minor scale - because making the V chord major creates the leading note tension.

Edited January 8, 2016 by bassman7755

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1452250231' post='2947984']
I don't really buy this, the [b]V chord is "dominant" because its 3rd is the leading note (7th) of the key[/b], not because it contains a b7th. This is also why we have a harmonic minor scale - because making the V chord major creates the leading note tension.
[/quote]


Hmm... I fear we may be talking at crossed purposes. I've been at pains to emphasize the 'character' of each of the modal scales. In the Dorian scale, the structure of the IV chord is Root, Major 3rd, Perfect 5th and (when used) a Flat 7th (which notes it gets from the parent Major scale). Last time I looked, that was called a dominant 7th chord, but by all means feel free to suggest an alternative that doesn't offend your sensibilities so much. I never said you [i][b]have[/b][/i] to have a IV7 chord; simply that by sticking to the standard harmonic structure this is what you get. In truth I didn't feel I was saying anything controversial - this stuff is standard music theory.

For the record, I'm trying - still - to help a (somewhat confused) OP get a bit of a handle on the structure and characteristics of the modal variations of the Major scale, and in doing so am working quite hard to avoid weighing the text down with avoidable and/or marginally relevant technicalities. I'd like to think that everybody else here is trying to do the same...

Edited January 8, 2016 by leftybassman392

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452267947' post='2948316']
Hmm... I fear we may be talking at crossed purposes. I've been at pains to emphasize the 'character' of each of the modal scales. In the Dorian scale, the structure of the IV chord is Root, Major 3rd, Perfect 5th and (when used) a Flat 7th (which notes it gets from the parent Major scale).
[/quote]

There obviously no disputing that[i] the dorian mode has a dominant 7th chord at the fourth [/i]but what you actually said was "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In the Dorian scale, [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]harmonic orthodoxy has the dominant chord at the fourth". Taken literally I contend that this statement is inaccurate and potentially confusing.[/font][/color]

My understanding being ...
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][i]The dominant chord[/i] in a minor key (aolean mode) is the V chord while the [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]VII chord is merely[/font][/color][i] a dominant 7th chord - [/i]not quite the same thing. Similarly the IV in a dorian progression is [i]a dominant 7th chord[/i] but not [i]the dominant chord[/i].

And yes obviously were all trying to be helpful, even if my particular brand of "help" in this case is splitting semantic hairs

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1452293989' post='2948732']


There obviously no disputing that[i] the dorian mode has a dominant 7th chord at the fourth [/i]but what you actually said was "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In the Dorian scale, [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]harmonic orthodoxy has the dominant chord at the fourth". Taken literally I contend that this statement is inaccurate and potentially confusing.[/font][/color]

My understanding being ...
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][i]The dominant chord[/i] in a minor key (aolean mode) is the V chord while the [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]VII chord is merely[/font][/color][i] a dominant 7th chord - [/i]not quite the same thing. Similarly the IV in a dorian progression is [i]a dominant 7th chord[/i] but not [i]the dominant chord[/i].

And yes obviously were all trying to be helpful, even if my particular brand of "help" in this case is splitting semantic hairs
[/quote]

It's important to remember that the designation "Dominant" in reference to the 5th degree of the key only applies to the major key. It's strictly not transferable to other modes.
In any case, Aeolian would not be the parent scale for a minor key. It doesn't contain a Tonic Minor chord. Harmonic Minor gives a min-maj7th chord, as does Melodic Minor which also gives a Minor 6th chord. In addition, Aeolian doesn't give a V chord which is dominant - the raised 7th enables this and gives Harmonic Minir it's name.

When talking about harmony, the term dominant chord is used to describe any dominant 7th chord; regardless of position or function. iys easy to get hung up on chord V as being THE dominant because classical theory names the 5th degree of a major scale as "dominant" - but it's just known as chord V.

[Grangur]

Wow. Thanks for the great thread. Just when I was thinking BC was going down the drain.

I can't claim to know a lot about Modes, but something interesting to try is to noodle about using EPhrygian or any Phrygian come to that and it sounds really like flemenco. The flattened 2nd really nails that feel.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1452329254' post='2948854']
Wow. Thanks for the great thread. Just when I was thinking BC was going down the drain.

I can't claim to know a lot about Modes, but something interesting to try is to noodle about using EPhrygian or any Phrygian come to that and it sounds really like flemenco. The flattened 2nd really nails that feel.
[/quote]

It's actually fairly common as a sound in genuine Flamenco. The b2nd gives the music a lovely dark, mystical quality (derived as it is from Moorish influences). There are one or two variations on the basic idea that you might want to play around with as well (I'll put them inside a spoiler tag because it's a bit of an aside, and folks won't need to read it if they don't want to):

[spoiler] Some of the following have multiple names, so I'll use the ones I know...

Phrygian Dominant: Root, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7 (some will know this as the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale )

Phrygian Arabic : Root, b2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7

Hungarian Major : Root, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7

There's many other ways of constructing a 7-note scale with a b2, but these are all pretty well known I think.

Enjoy! [/spoiler]

Traditionally the guitar is an instrument to accompany dance in Flamenco, but it has been developed into a distinct art form by players such as Paco Pena and Juan Martin among others. Well worth a listen if you can dig out some of their old recordings. Here's a lovely example of a young Pena and that gorgeous b2 sound:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGJ9S3Is6lY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGJ9S3Is6lY[/url]

ETA: The following is definitely off the beaten track but might help people make sense of the Flamenco piece:

[spoiler] Structurally it is basically a theme and increasingly elaborate variations, and in this sense is related to traditional Scottish bagpipe music (Piobaireach - pronounced 'Pibroch'):

[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pibroch"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pibroch[/url]

[/spoiler]

Edited January 9, 2016 by leftybassman392

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1452334911' post='2948910']


Phrygian Dominant: Root, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7

Phrygian Arabic : Root, b2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7 (some will know this as the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale )

[/quote]

It's actually Phrygian Dominant that's mode V Harmonic minor; also known as Phrygian Major (as it's Phrygian with a major 3rd) or Mixolydian b9b13.
Phrygian Arabic is mode V of the Harmonic Major scale.

There's also one called Spanish Phrygian (amongst other names), used extensively by Chick Corea. It's Phrygian with an added maj3rd:
R, b2, b3,3, 4, 5, b6, b7.
It's a belter!

Edited January 9, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[leftybassman392]

Oops! Wires got a bit crossed. That'll teach me to check before posting. Duly corrected with thanks.

[Romberg Bevel]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1452303479' post='2948802']


It's important to remember that the designation "Dominant" in reference to the 5th degree of the key only applies to the major key. It's strictly not transferable to other modes...

When talking about harmony, the term dominant chord is used to describe any dominant 7th chord; regardless of position or function. iys easy to get hung up on chord V as being THE dominant because classical theory names the 5th degree of a major scale as "dominant" - but it's just known as chord V.
[/quote]

Can you cite any sources for this? I've never encountered this interpretation. Dominant always relates to the fifth degree. I understand that the term 'Dominant Seventh' has been borrowed to describe a chord of that type (and causes much confusion in the process), but is that now contracted to 'dominant' to mean the same thing?

Edited January 10, 2016 by Romberg Bevel