Mornats Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Ironically, the instrument that I find the hardest to record and mix well is the bass. Or perhaps I'm just fussy about the sound and I'm never happy? I record straight into my Focusrite Forte interface (which has very nice preamps) into Reaper, using the instrument level input with my input flashing up well below the yellow or red and it just sounds "meh". But rather than trying to fix my crappy bass, I thought I'd start a thread where we can contribute any knowledge on how to record and mix bass. Over to you fine folk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old_Ben Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Are you using any amp sim software like amplitube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I find a touch of chorus adds a bit of life to the tone and as long as there is a bit of top in it then some sensitive EQing can give it enough edge to let it cut through while keeping a bit of warmth at the same time .................................... Hark at me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Would you care to post a sample of what you've currently got, and maybe refer us to a track which has a bass sound you'd have liked to obtain..? We could then, perhaps, advise how to get from A to B..? Just a suggestion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 [font=Helvetica][size=3] [size=4]As Ben has said above, amp sims are your friend! They typically offer a huge range of tones and IMO are a lot more versatile than the real thing [i](I’m probably committing some kind of heresy by saying that on this forum…).[/i][/size][/size][/font] [font=Helvetica][size=3] [size=4]Lots of free ones available. One of my own favourite commercial sims is the Softube Bass Amp Room, now bundled free with Reason but available as a standalone plug-in:[/size][/size][/font] [font=Helvetica][size=3] [size=4]http://www.softube.com/index.php?id=bar[/size][/size][/font] [font=Helvetica][size=3] [size=4]A touch of distortion or saturation can also be very useful. It creates additional upper harmonics that can help to ‘fatten up’ your tone (a useful trick for mixing bass in busy tracks with guitars).[/size][/size][/font] [font=Helvetica][size=3] [size=4]Other than that, EQ. This is always dependant on the context of the track - and as with any EQ’ing, it’s usually better to cut frequencies than boost them to get the tone you want. That said, a wee nudge around 1Khz can be really useful when mixing bass in some tracks. Again, especially noisy songs with lots of greedy guitars.[/size][/size][/font] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yeah, I've got both Ampeg SVX and Guitar Rig 5 Pro. I use compression, EQ to try and get a nice sound but it always sounds rather dull. Even if I do a high pass filter at around 40hz and cut a bit of the mud between 300-500hz it's always the worst sounding instrument! I'd be interested to know where people are cutting and boosting to get a nice clear tone. Some example: https://soundcloud.com/mornats/when-things-come-out-at-night - a nice tone I think but has some dullness and a muffly sound to it. And of course one of the nicest sounding bass tones around is on here: (not asking much am I?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmsJqzEEfco But also, despite the lovely RedNet preamps in my Focusrite Forte, the bass - any bass I put into it - never sounds all that great when I'm just going straight through the interface and out into headphones. It obviously isn't a produced/mixed/engineered tone but the same bass will sound lovely when it's shifting air through my MarkBass. Another example is the sample tones when I compared my Entwistle pickups with the stock ones. The electronics on this bass are courtesy of our own KiOgon so they're definitely not the weak part! https://soundcloud.com/mornats/pickups-comparison - not too bad sounding but compare it to the tones from this bunch of jazzes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGyrGTuMhzo There's a lot of upper-mid jazz squelchy/growly stuff going on in the video that my recording lacks I tend to get the same results with my recorded tone no matter which bass I use - my upgraded Squier, Bass Collection, Overwater Classic jazz, Yamaha TRBX etc. All of them sound great through an amp but I'm sure I'm losing out on something when recording them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 [size=4][quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1423180086' post='2682046']... I tend to get the same results with my recorded tone no matter which bass I use - my upgraded Squier, Bass Collection, Overwater Classic jazz, Yamaha TRBX etc. All of them sound great through an amp but I'm sure I'm losing out on something when recording them. [/quote][/size] [size=4]What do these basses sound like played through the amp, but listening with headphones (ie: no cab nor room sound added...)..? How about the opposite... Have you played your recording back through your amp, into the cab..? What does that do to the sound..?[/size] [size=4]Listening to the Soundcloud above, I'd be very pleased to have a bass sound as clear and defined as that. There are several compliments on the bass tone, and a return comment from yourself saying '... I love the sound..."..! P[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]erhaps you're just fussy about the sound and are never happy..? [/font][/color][/size] [size=4][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The volume will change things, too. Mixing at low-ish headphone level is a Good Thing, but the final listen should be at 'real' levels, and the bass tone changes quite radically. One should really only compare like with like; ie: a recording with another recording, not compare to a 'live' sound.[/font][/color][/size] [size=4][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]More, and better, comments from others; bring 'em on... [/font][/color][/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottle Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1423180086' post='2682046'] I tend to get the same results with my recorded tone no matter which bass I use - my upgraded Squier, Bass Collection, Overwater Classic jazz, Yamaha TRBX etc. All of them sound great through an amp but I'm sure I'm losing out on something when recording them. [/quote] Have you considered mic'ing up the cab in addition to the DI track or as a substitute for it, if you're that happy with the amp tone. An alternative which bridges both worlds would be to record DI[i] and[/i] cab at the same time, and then choose the best-sounding track at mixdown (or a blend of the two perhaps - the DI tone will probably go lower and give you more of the fundamental) Third, you could record your performance using the DI and once you are happy with the edits, print/render the track with an amp sim plugin, or even better, send the clean track out to your amp for mic'ing. A Reamping box is your friend here and can be picked up cheap (I got a Palmer D'accapo from Amazon for less than £65) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 If you are going to get into re-amping you don't need a dedicated re-amp box. A standard passive DI wired in reverse (send from the desk into the XLR socket, instrument input to the amp - you might need to make up a special lead for the XLR as it will be working in reverse) will work just as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Its a kicker isnt it. That great tone you get out of your rig live, and you DI your bass and get nothing like it, or you mic it and get nothing like it, either no low end, no grind, too nasal, no balls. No 'schawingggggg'.... EQ and compression in the mix can help, extreme EQ can make a DI'ed bass sound pretty good, but at the end of the day a speaker flapping around is a very very poor transducer, it adds all sorts of odd distortion to the sound and filters out a load of frequencies to boot. Ports effectively boost frequencies, and you cant mic the cab at a distance because your room is rubbish acoustically. Cabinet emulators try to achieve something not dismilar, and some of them are pretty convincing. CLose micing is capturing very limited parts of the sound put out by the cab as a whole. I'm currently recording for my band, and have been laying down bass tracks all week. I spent an evening going through combinations of cabs, pickup settings, mics and DI, and all sorts of options. Eventually came up with a set of parameters that gave me what I feel is a really good starting point, its a really thick meaty tone, not too growly and just what I was after. Thing is it doesnt matter how I did it, it wont be the tone in your head, so there's no point me trotting out the recipe in full, it did involve two mics, and no DI, which is a first for me IIRC on a bass rig. You have to spend a lot of time experimenting, hours even, always listen with great headphones as you move mics around to find a sweet spot. If you are mixing more than one source then check the phase using your ears, meters and anything else to hand, in phase multiple sources get louder when summed, out of phase they dont (they may not get quieter but they do not get louder). Make recordings (yes multiple) comparing all the combinations to pick what is best - start with mics in standardosh places and just take instant decisions, what are the best two mics, choose, now. WHat cabs do they work on best, choose, now, where does each mic sound best on its own, choose, do they mix well there, or not, if so then you're done. I always record a DI as well, just in case I need something that the speaker/mic combo isnt giving me when it comes to mix time, but generally if I've put everything together right up to this point all the bass will need in the mix is maybe a little eq. I use compression on the way in when I record bass, but I'vew doen so for decades and am very comfortable with knowing the result I'm after. If you don't know your compressors inside out, leave compression for mix down, its far more forgiving that way... As for reamping, try not to, really, making a mix is hard enough without having to reenvisage every decision made during tracking up to that point, do your best to choose a path and stick right on it, mixing should ideally be done when you balance the faders, it never is, but thats the goal, track with that in mind! Edited February 6, 2015 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old_Ben Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 failing that turn everything else off and the bass will sound best! I always aim for an aggressive bright tone when doing my recording, what I do is do the bass straight after drums and eq everything around the bass ... dunno how effective it is to others but maybe give that a try! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Going through this same game over last few weeks. Direct into Focusrite produced so so results with a fair range of basses. Gibson SG sounded best. Bought MXR DI+ from this very forum this week and it has made a significant difference. Compression helps - I just use Audacity default value. Simplistic approach however I am at the start of the learning curve. Recording seems to show all the defects in my playing technique, stuff that sound ok (or even good) live is rather less so in recordings. Edited February 6, 2015 by 3below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 [quote name='3below' timestamp='1423253315' post='2682926'] .............................. Recording seems to show all the defects in my playing technique, stuff that sound ok (or even good) live is rather less so in recordings. [/quote] This is so true, and one of the biggest benefits of trying to get good recordings is the improvement to my playing levels , I think I have improved massively because I try harder to get it right . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I like to compress the bass signal before it goes into the digital domain. If I don't do this, I find I have to set the recording level really low to avoid the lowest notes creating clipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 As long as you are recording at 24 bit don't worry at all about recording at low levels. When tracking drums I leave a good 12dB above the highest peaks. At mix down you can use a gain plugin or normalise the tracks to make driving other gain sensitive plugins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 And never forget there are no hard and fast rules If it sounds good and didn't release the magic smoke then it is good.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Have you tried recording the di from your amp, rather than straight in to the box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero9 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1423310656' post='2683346'] Have you tried recording the di from your amp, rather than straight in to the box? [/quote] +1 Use your Markbass as a preamp or a separate preamp. This should liven up your tone, although there was nothing much wrong with your tone, it will give it more oomph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 [quote name='zero9' timestamp='1423314197' post='2683390'] +1 Use your Markbass as a preamp or a separate preamp. This should liven up your tone, although there was nothing much wrong with your tone, it will give it more oomph. [/quote] Yep, another +1 to this. I have a little EBS combo that I often run the bass through (DI'd from the amp into my computer) and use a cheap condenser mic to simultaneously record what comes out of the speaker. Works well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Wow thanks for all of the fantastic comments and advice guys. Basschat at its best I'm gonna try recording from the DI on my MarkBass 121P (essentially an LM3) and as Simon suggested, just keep going at it and at it, learning and learning along the way. I'm very interested in 3below's suggestion of a DI box although that's what I'm getting from the MarkBass I guess? Worth trying with what I've got before giving myself an excuse for GAS I learnt from The Recording Revolution about recording at low levels and leaving loads of headroom. Thankfully the preamps on my Focusrite are deemed to be very noise-free by many so I should have no problems here. I'll let you know how I get on and maybe post a comparison of my old technique and any new techniques that I end up using. Thanks again all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thought I'd come back and update you all with my progress. First of all, here's the result (and also my entry for this month's composition challenge): https://soundcloud.com/mornats/trains I DI'ed my MarkBass combo head (essentially a LMIII) into the Focusrite Forte with around 11.5db of headroom - that's a first for me, I used to go as high as I could, straight into the instrument level input with around 1-2db of gain. In Reaper I added the following effects: Blue Cat Audio Gain (Mono) - added 5db of gain. ReaEQ (still my go-to EQ despite having loads) - highpass at around 57hz, slight 0.7db boost at 166hz to fatten up the bottom, a 5db dip at 360hz to clear up some muddiness, a 3.2db boost at 876hz to pull out the top end zing and a lowpass at 9khz. ReaComp - sidechained the kick drum to duck the bass when it hits. Native Instruments Supercharger compressor - 4.4 ratio, with punch and dirt settings ticked. I have to say that the bass sounded awesome when I recorded it. I think the DI at low volume into Reaper was the winner here. I'd never considered my MarkBass to be a kickass DI box before Thanks again everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 i tend to run my bass direct and then add amp impulses, which are effectively cab sims taken from cabs directly. i think combining the two gives a good tone. i also run through my sansamp pedal which gives a real nice tone. bizarely, i spend more time mixing the bass and being unhappy with it than i do other instruments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1424004856' post='2691380']... ReaEQ (still my go-to EQ despite having loads) - highpass at around 57hz, slight 0.7db boost at 166hz to fatten up the bottom, a 5db dip at 360hz to clear up some muddiness, a 3.2db boost at 876hz to pull out the top end zing and a lowpass at 9khz.... [/quote] Result..! Good stuff; we can all learn from each other in this way (well, some learn more than others, I'll freely admit. Decimal boosts and cuts are foreign to me; I tend to go in 3db leaps..! Anything less is just about unnoticeable to my poor old ears..! ). Keep sharing the tips and experiences, please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero9 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Sounds great! Love the bass tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1423329531' post='2683643'] ...... I learnt from The Recording Revolution about recording at low levels and leaving loads of headroom. Thankfully the preamps on my Focusrite are deemed to be very noise-free by many so I should have no problems here. Thanks again all [/quote] This is a really useful tip and as I reflect and think, I agree it is logical in this digital age since the lack of 'noise' means much more gain can be added at mix down later. One thing we (me and singer) have learned so far is not to worry about getting balance / levels perfect in the initial recording. They can be fixed later (without noise in the digital realm). The other area to watch is setting levels close to 'hot' / 'orange/red' / -3dB before recording. Somehow it gets much louder in performance which results in distortion / poorer recording. The -11/12db suggested by Monats is a good fix for this. Dad3353 is on the money with the 3dB increments being significant. It is all a big learning curve. My best direct recording bass is still Gibson, big, woody and full, string balance is an issue, compression helps. I would still like to get most of it down from the bass, is this wishful thinking? Edited February 22, 2015 by 3below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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