ironside1966 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 This is a old problem because many people seem to judge an engineer's skill on the drum sound especially the kick. if you get a good kick sound you can see the faces of the band members light up. The only problem I hate that drum heavy sound I can get it and don't get me wrong I like a good punchy drums but it must be in the context of the music. I have seen far too many gig were the drums are drowning everything ells out. The main priority in when I mix is that the song come through. I mix live like you would expect to hear a record but puncher, the drums might be slightly louder but you can hear everything. Bands need to play their part too, the arrangements need to be good and you need to leave space both musically and sonically for the parts to cut through. A rule of thumb is trouser flapping kick or bass you can't have both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 As I mentioned in an older thread along similar lines a while back I saw Peter Gabriel on his last tour in an arena and barely heard a note Tony Levin played all night. I think these big spaces with high roofing and very non-absorbing surfaces are a real challenge for even decent sound engineers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1424263279' post='2694477'] Surely the vocals are the most acoustic instrument on the stage and also normally the quietest but also the most important from an audience PoV. Therefore it makes total sense to get them sounding good and mix the rest of the band around that. [/quote] I'm not disagreeing with other methods if that's what works for people. Personally, I liked to get the band setup and mixed, often to a subgroup so you can turn the band mix up or down if you have the luxury of a big rig. You can then do the vocals and bring the already mixed band back up with them. I found the last thing a vocalist would want to do is wear out their voice for ages in a soundcheck while you're trying to balance everything to them afterwards, so would always do them last as this was the least time consuming method for a vocalist. Maybe I'm just used to working with prima donna singers I would also add, as I spent a lot of time being an in-house engineer in a large venue, I used to prefer it when bands didn't soundcheck at all as I knew my rig and room so well I could usually set them up very close to what they asked for during a line check before the gig. I'm sure many musos will be disgusted by the thought of not soundchecking, but the difference between an empty reverberant room and one filled with 1500+ bodies is often massively different anyway - and great for the lazy bugger I was - I didn't have to write loads of settings down for each band in the pre-digital desk days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I'm always happy not to soundcheck, but going on for a 5 minute line check before your set doesn't look very professional A lot of venues still have analogue mixers with no option to store a mix, in which case, I really don't understand why they soundcheck every band on the bill, but they still do All I know is, from my very limited experience of live sound, I would not want that job!! I can mix recorded music all day long, but live sound is somehow beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1424268910' post='2694546'] All I know is, from my very limited experience of live sound, I would not want that job!! I can mix recorded music all day long, but live sound is somehow beyond me. [/quote] I loved the challenge of unmuting and then having to get it right quickly. It was even better when you had the luxury of doing front of house (FOH) mixing with a separate monitor engineer. Mixing something like 8 separate monitor mixes from the same desk and channels as FOH is not so fun, but you do feel like you've conquered the world when it works for you! Sitting in a studio listening to the same track over and over again used to bore me to tears and probably explains why I don't have a home recording setup. Each to their own of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The second time I ever attempted live sound was as a last minute favour to a friend. I got to the little pub, it was already packed with people, and they had no idea where the in house PA was. Once I'd found it, I noticed a multicore going into a wall, and then a box on the other end, but no labelling at all. I got it all set up as it should have been, but for whatever reason, I couldn't get any amount of reasonable level on the vocal mics without feedback, and this was with no monitors. A pub full of people holding their ears saying "f***ing hell mate" was enough to put me off for life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Aaah yes, I've been there many times. Using an unknown rig in an unknown venue is not fun, but again - if you do make it sound decent, then you're the hero of the hour. I learned you have to have a pretty thick skin to do it - there will always be an armchair hi-fi enthusiast standing near your desk who will tell you it sounds s**t - even if you think it's your best ever mix. My rule of thumb was always "sound engineers only get noticed if they're s**t" - it is rare to get plaudits in the live game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I recall ending up being responsible for the onstage mix in the latter months of one band I was in and the guitarist's wife (who had no relevant techincal knowledge at all) coming up to the front of the stage and berating me about what it should sound like. This was while we were playing and I was doing bass, midi pedals and providing backing vocals at the time. I told her at the between sets break in no uncertain terms that it was down to us to sort it out and basically go forth and multiply (the mix was actually OK but maybe her hubby wasn't quite as up front as she obviously wanted). She never spoke to me again and the band broke up not too long after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I used to do live sound many years ago, before digital desks. I also share a hatred of the sort of kick drum sound that many a metal band would enjoy, all click and thud like. The trouble was, for many bands I mixed this was the sound they got... Many drummers use a hard wood/plastic beater, in the practice room it gives them a sharper attack where a soft beater would just be a dull thud. Added to this, in recent years (like the last 20) there has been an increasing trend to use thinner, more resonant heads coupled with a kevlar dot where the beater hits the skin - this helps it last longer than the first set. The result is that acoustically, the kick drum still sounds full with a decent attack to it, meaning it cuts through the noise in a practice room, complementing the bass. Fast forward to gig night, and stick a large diaphragm mic a few inches from the kevlar dot on the inside of the drum and you get the sound you would get if your ear was there. MASSIVE Click attack, accompanied by the BOOM of the natural resonant drum sound - converted to a thud by the charity shop cushions within. Put that through a big PA rig, and the resonance will increase, especially in the low mids, where it may even start to feed-back or boom a little, depending on the venue acoustics and the volume. So a bit of the resonant low mid gets removed to assist and voila - Lars Ulrich circa 1992. I used to roll off all the click I could, but there's no escaping the sound at source. And if you take off too much you end up with just a really low pitched rumble, no definition at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 A lot of drum kits sound poor acoustically and this is down to the guy that tunes them for the mst part so as soon as they go thru a P.A, that is the one thing that you have make sound good aprt from the vocals. Everything else is roughly there altho bass can be a pig if the bass player hasn't got his sound down.. If the P.A is tuned in and the core band mixes well without FOH, then mixing should be a breeze as you are just amplifying decent core sounds..it is when you get into fights and have to EQ everything that it all gets a bit fraught... but for big stages, I leave it to people who know their kit.. When you find a good soundman, you keep him as there are a lot of jokers about, IMO..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I went to The Ritz in Manchester last night to see Karnivool. I've seen them 3 times before, and each time their sound was just incredible, but just to focus on the bass, he is always very clear, you can hear every note, it sounds fat, and then when he kicks on his distortion I can't stop grinning Last night was a different story though. It seemed there was a massive scoop in the low mids. It wasn't that the bass was too quiet, as when he kicked on his distortion, the upper mids were cutting through just right. Perhaps the low end was too quiet, I'm not sure as obviously the kick drum has to be overpowering everything down there, but yeh, 200-400 Hz was just missing, and so you couldn't "feel" the bass. It was still a great gig, but I was pretty dissappointed with the sound. He had a mic on his 8x10 and I wonder if the sound man had a low pass set too low on the DI, or the high pass set too high on the mic, or both The sound for the support band (monuments, who were ace) was even worse. Loads of kick, almost no snare, a bit of guitar, and some subs from the bassist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The volume of kick drums at gigs drives me mad - not much to add to the thread, but nice to hear the opinion from the other side of the mixing desk. The only band I can recall that I saw recently that had a good balanced drum sound was (would you believe it) Russian Circles - a band with a pretty heavy drum sound on record. Mind you, the whole gig was mixed perfectly ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 went to see the Stranglers last night at Rock City and the mix was great, no bass drum dominating the mix, don't think JJ would put up with that lol, mind you his bass sound didn't sound like him but you could hear it well enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFry Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGbcnZ-3CJQ[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I went to see a music show last Friday, That`ll Be The Day, was my Mums birthday present. And the sound-man must have been a drummer, as it was without doubt the best miked up drum sound I`ve ever heard. Crisp, clear, no boom, every drum/cymbal clearly identifiable from each other. Made me wish for those types of sounds at regular gigs. And that`s not all, this process also applied to all of the instruments and the vocals. But for me, the drums just sounded so unlike a nowadays miked up kit, it was just great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrismanbass Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) [quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1424200357' post='2693814'] Digital desks play a part I'm sure. The sound man thinks, here's the preset for kick eq, compression is a memory bank away and voila! I'm going to really light the blue touch paper now and suggest the lack of bass is due to them insisting on a pre eq send.... Stand well back! [/quote] you've quite clearly never worked with a sound engineer who knows ANYTHING about live sound because i can assure you that most presets in digital desk (i'd be interested to know which ones you've worked with) are total rubbish and pretty much unusable. as for the pre eq thing thats been well done already and everyone has their own opinion on it some are right some are wrong most are misinformed i think the only person who actually came out with something sensible was BRX [quote name='zero9' timestamp='1424200963' post='2693824'] The current crop of sound 'engineers' haven't got a clue IMO. They all seem to get a sh*te sound. Must be something they're taught at college. [/quote] thats a very sweeping statement. What about the ones who don't go to college and learn from experience (of which i am one) i don't believe you've ever heard me mix so i'd quite like an apology please Edited March 25, 2015 by Chrismanbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrismanbass Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1427309727' post='2728749'] I went to see a music show last Friday, That`ll Be The Day, was my Mums birthday present. And the sound-man must have been a drummer, as it was without doubt the best miked up drum sound I`ve ever heard. Crisp, clear, no boom, every drum/cymbal clearly identifiable from each other. Made me wish for those types of sounds at regular gigs. And that`s not all, this process also applied to all of the instruments and the vocals. But for me, the drums just sounded so unlike a nowadays miked up kit, it was just great. [/quote] I'm interested as to why a sound engineer "has to be a drummer" to be able to get a good drum sound these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero9 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 [quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1427315937' post='2728902'] thats a very sweeping statement. What about the ones who don't go to college and learn from experience (of which i am one) i don't believe you've ever heard me mix so i'd quite like an apology please [/quote] Quite agree, the ones who didn't go to college are usually great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 all getting a bit snarky. My advice is, if any of you are interested enough in live sound to have a negative opinion about everybody else's efforts, perhaps some dedicated study of the real problems facing sound engineers, often mixing bands who's stage sound is awful, through an unbalanced rig, in 10 minutes, so they can do the other 4 bands who insist on "our check, man". It really is invigorating. Then you can move on to moaning about the onstage sound, the lack of mics on the bass amps, the predominance of guitar amps in FOH and singers who barely breathe into their mic and deal with that. Happily, I don't do much of that anymore, but you're welcome to, seeing as it's so easy : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Ha ha, well said Monckyman - I couldn't have put it better myself. The greatest advice I can ever give is to be friendly and forgiving to your sound guy (sorry, engineer (loved the animation above!)). Even if they're rubbish, they're usually trying their best with the knowledge and experience they have to give you a good sound. If it sounds s**t, the audience won't look daggers at you in the band, they will look at the guy behind the desk and believe me, it's a lonely place to be sometimes - especially if the issue is not your fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero9 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm mainly having a dig at the current 'younger' generation of sound engineers, with huge rigs, mixing well known bands. At my (pub) level, I only have praise for the guys doing the mixing / engineering, they've all been great, even when working in challenging circumstances and with crappier gear. No offence intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't think we can generalise about all sound engineers at all, I thought we'd moved past that in this thread a while ago. I just thought I'd bring it back to share my frustration with the sound on tuesday night. Other than the rhythm section it was pretty good for Karnivool. I still had to have my ear plugs in, and at one point I think my heart was struggling with the kick drum vibrations, but still an enjoyable night Anyway, a band on that sort of level probably takes their own sound engineer so I've no idea how they managed to get it so wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hi CT, as I've alluded to before, it could be poor acoustics - or maybe even an acoustic dead or odd spot where you were standing that was giving the impression it was wrong, that the engineer hadn't been able to sort in his rig during setup. It could have been a fault on his rig, or it could have been an issue with the bass player/drummer's gear. Usually, bands of these sizes tour with a rig, but sometimes they depend on local hire companies to each gig or even the in-house venue's stuff. If the touring engineer is not used to the rig or it's not been spec'd right, it can be wildly different from the last gig. We will never know, but may not be as simple as blaming the engineer - which I realise you're not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Well i'd normally blame the bassist. The guy from Monuments was clearly a great player, but I figured he had a totally scooped tone as I could hear the occasional clank, and some subs, but nothing else. But yeh, I couldn't possibly blame Jon Stockman, he's always had such an immense sound. I was stood right in front of the desk, so maybe it was my fault, my density blocking the path to the engineers' ears Edited March 26, 2015 by cheddatom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ha ha, funnily enough, add a load of sweaty bodies to a room, and the sound can be completely different to it was during sound check. That's why I never liked soundchecking! I'm not calling you sweaty, of course CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.