Babicz bridges....true or false ???

[Wayne Firefly]

Just a few thoughts...its probably just metaphysical BS but lets see what people think.
Babicz full contact bridges. Do they improve tone / sustain / anything ?

If you have the standard, pressed tin Fender style Precision / Jazz bridge, string pressure is forced down into it and string vibration feeds into the body through the height adjustment grub screws and through the very thin baseplate into the body. Now, after seeing the Youtube clip from Babicz, the contact points are the very small grub screws, thus compromising the vibration path through your bridge, regardless of brand, from the thinnest pressed tin vintage to the heaviest modern chunky version, that vibration has to travel through the grub screws (if the bridge is of that design of course). (Spector bridges may be an exception)
Now would the thinner, vintage style baseplate allow a better transmission of vibration than a thicker, denser baseplate ?
Surely there is less material for the vibration to travel through right ?
Would brass sound brighter than aluminium as its denser or would steel sound brighter again as its denser than brass ?
The only 'theory' I have of that is a bare concrete / brick / stone room with heavy hard walls and floor tends to sound 'brighter' and harder than a room with much less denser wall and floor coverings making a more natural 'deader' sound.
Also if so, why can a super lightweight Tele sound vibrant and warm when a 12LB Les Paul can sound toppy and trebly if you use that reasoning ?
Also add to the fact that the non speaking parts of a string are probably useless as far as anything other than actually being attached to the bass is concerned.
I tend to use that much attack and growling overdrive / distortion with the band anyway that at flat out gig volumes with the drummer hammering away and two guitars blaring out with a singer, subtle nuances of bass tone are kind of lost if you get my drift...
'Yes, I can really tell you are using the ash bodied Stingray tonight as opposed to the alder one'.. Hmmmmm.
So, to get back to the start, are Babicz bridges just snake oil or actually a real step forward as far as bass bridge design is concerned for the better ??
Does string vibration actually make any difference in real terms (I know acoustic basses are a totally different animal in this way, Im on about solid body electrics)
Does string vibration actually matter at all (into the body) except for pickup function ??
Im confused !!!

[discreet]

FALSE. Bridges make NO difference to tone or sustain. [i]IMHO[/i].
But a Babicz looks nice and is better for palm muting than a bridge with sharp grub screws, purely because it won't shred your hand.

Edited April 16, 2015 by discreet

[Wayne Firefly]

They do look nice fair do's !!
Marketing is a powerful tool.......

[Acebassmusic]

[i]... after seeing the Youtube clip from Babicz, the contact points are the very small grub screws....[/i]The strings sit on a cam which sits in full contact with the bridge body not raised up on grub screws.

[i]........ at flat out gig volumes with the drummer hammering away and two guitars blaring out with a singer, subtle nuances of bass tone are [s]kind of lost[/s] OBLITERATED if you get my drift...[/i]Amended for accuracy

[i]'Yes, I can really tell you are using the ash bodied Stingray tonight as opposed to the alder one'.. Hmmmmm[/i]. - See note above....lol

[i]Are Babicz bridges just snake oil or actually a real step forward as far as bass bridge design is concerned for the better ?? [/i]

I have had a Babicz bridge on a couple of different basses (Fender 5 and Roscoe LG 5) and really like the design for their ease of adjustment and ability to lock the settings in place. As far as tonal differences, I couldn't detect any percievable difference when isolated in a quiet room......YMMV.....once the drummer had completed his 4 count.....not a chance!

[discreet]

[quote name='Acebassmusic' timestamp='1429187783' post='2748932']
I have had a Babicz bridge on a couple of different basses (Fender 5 and Roscoe LG 5) and really like the design for their ease of adjustment and ability to lock the settings in place. As far as tonal differences, I couldn't detect any percievable difference when isolated in a quiet room......YMMV.....once the drummer had completed his 4 count.....not a chance!
[/quote]
[quote name='Wayne Firefly' timestamp='1429187133' post='2748912']
They do look nice fair do's !! Marketing is a powerful tool.......
[/quote]

Sums it up for me. Nothing wrong with replacing your bridge if you like the look of a new one and/or it has better functionality.
No-one's going to judge you for that - you feckless, market-led, weak-willed mammothrept!

[Wayne Firefly]

Lol indeed !!! Your logic is sound Captain !!!!
So from a structural standpoint, its superior, I like the idea of solid locking parts !!! (I tend to lean towards the Bill Gould school of playing)

[Wayne Firefly]

Weak willed market led mammothrept hahahahaha !!!

[MiltyG565]

A friend of mine put one on his Fender Aerodyne Jazz. Tonally different? Not really (from what I recall), but it did increase the sustain a great deal.

The thing is that on the standard Fender hardware, they have very small contact points, which are just the bottom of the alan-headed screws for adjusting the saddle. When you play a note, it's purely a vibration. Losses mean that a vibration won't sustain for as long. Of course, there will always be losses (because physics), but the easiest way to minimise losses on a bass is to have a bridge with less "play" in it. The BBOT bridges have a lot of play in them.

[discreet]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1429201275' post='2749186']
A friend of mine put one on his Fender Aerodyne Jazz. Tonally different? Not really (from what I recall), but it did increase the sustain a great deal. The thing is that on the standard Fender hardware, they have very small contact points, which are just the bottom of the alan-headed screws for adjusting the saddle. When you play a note, it's purely a vibration. Losses mean that a vibration won't sustain for as long. Of course, there will always be losses (because physics), but the easiest way to minimise losses on a bass is to have a bridge with less "play" in it. The BBOT bridges have a lot of play in them.
[/quote]

Don't want to make this into a 'thing', but [i]in my humble opinion[/i] and [i]in my experience[/i] I have not found that replacing a BBOT increases sustain to any measurable degree. Plus, sustain is a highly overrated characteristic anyway. Does anyone really need a lot of it for bass playing?

[HowieBass]

My thinking on this is that you want to keep as much of the string vibration stuck inside the strings for as long as possible if sustain is important to you - transmission of energy beyond the fixed ends of a vibrating string, at the nut into the headstock, and at the bridge saddles into the body are, from a physics point of view, just dumping energy into heatsinks. Effectively both nut and bridge should act as mirrors. Bridge rigidity is more important in this context than sheer mass. I also believe that neck rigidity has a big part to play in sustain. Again, all in my humble opinion.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1429203118' post='2749223']
My thinking on this is that you want to keep as much of the string vibration stuck inside the strings for as long as possible if sustain is important to you - transmission of energy beyond the fixed ends of a vibrating string, at the nut into the headstock, and at the bridge saddles into the body are, from a physics point of view, just dumping energy into heatsinks. Effectively both nut and bridge should act as mirrors. Bridge rigidity is more important in this context than sheer mass. I also believe that neck rigidity has a big part to play in sustain. Again, all in my humble opinion.
[/quote]

I absolutely agree. I've never given credence to a bridge's ability to increase sustain based on it's mass. The Babicz FCH ones are good because you tighten the saddles down which gets rid of a lot of the losses associated with the BBOT bridges.

[3below]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1429202075' post='2749206']
Plus, sustain is a highly overrated characteristic anyway. Does anyone really need a lot of it for bass playing?
[/quote]

Many is the time when I would have liked a sustain reducing bridge, I have even tried rubber shim in neck pocket to achieve this effect - did not make much difference. Was back to the good old sponge under the strings method.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1429204592' post='2749249']
Many is the time when I would have liked a sustain reducing bridge, I have even tried rubber shim in neck pocket to achieve this effect - did not make much difference. Was back to the good old sponge under the strings method.
[/quote]

Reducing sustain is much easier than increasing it. There are times when I've been crying out for sustain on slower songs.

[3below]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1429205011' post='2749256']
Reducing sustain is much easier than increasing it. There are times when I've been crying out for sustain on slower songs.
[/quote]

Time for the 'sustainer changer' bridge, lever adjustable either way

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1429205568' post='2749266']
Time for the 'sustainer changer' bridge, lever adjustable either way
[/quote]

Ha! Like on lawnmowers, with the rabbit at one end and the tortoise at the other!

[discreet]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1429206843' post='2749290']
...with the rabbit at one end and the tortoise at the other!
[/quote]

Sounds like one of my club sandwiches...

[Raggy]

I like them and fit them to most of my P basses, I play like a thug and they are much stronger than a BBOT, but do not feel they improve tone or sustain (whatever sustain is )

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Raggy' timestamp='1429264492' post='2749767']
I like them and fit them to most of my P basses, I play like a thug and they are much stronger than a BBOT, but do not feel they improve tone or sustain (whatever sustain is )
[/quote]

But they do improve sustain.

[discreet]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1429268083' post='2749815']
But they do improve sustain.
[/quote]

The jury's still out on that one.

[throwoff]

Nothing in the instrument makes a single bit of difference to the tone other than pickups and electronics.

[3below]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1429206843' post='2749290']
Ha! Like on lawnmowers, with the rabbit at one end and the tortoise at the other!
[/quote]

Thanks for that you just reminded me of the big green thing outside that keeps growing and now needs time with machine that has the rabbit at one end and the tortoise at the other! I did it a few days ago and the b* thing has grown faster than ever with sunshine.

[mcnach]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1429202075' post='2749206']
Don't want to make this into a 'thing', but [i]in my humble opinion[/i] and [i]in my experience[/i] I have not found that replacing a BBOT increases sustain to any measurable degree. Plus, sustain is a highly overrated characteristic anyway. Does anyone really need a lot of it for bass playing?
[/quote]


same here. I never encountered a bass that made me think "hmmm, sweet, if only it had more sustain..."

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1429286357' post='2750083']
Nothing in the instrument makes a single bit of difference to the tone other than pickups and electronics.
[/quote]

Largely, yes. But other components do contribute a small amount to the overall tone. But it's not like you'd change the frets and play a gig and have a regular come up and say "What have you done to your bass since the last time, it sounds incredible!", but it likely has made some small difference to tone.

But for the exclusion of doubt - sustain and tone aren't the same thing.

[zero9]

Sales twaddle, the type of bridge, provides it's properly set up makes no humanly perceptable difference to sustain. Other factors are more influential in sustain, such as build quality, overall stiffness, through neck, laminated construction, and materials (carbon graphite etc).

[3below]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1429286357' post='2750083']
Nothing in the instrument makes a single bit of difference to the tone other than pickups and electronics.
[/quote]

You need Unobtanium. It is the only material to have the frets, bridge, machine heads and nut made from. From the first moment my bass had Unobtanium components fitted random strangers have said to me - what a tone, how much more sustain, how quick the notes decay, what attack and growl, what smoothness and bloom. Choose description for target market

In serious mode, I both mostly agree with this and slightly disagree. The only bass I have where I think (note lack of objective quantifiable measurable evidence) there is a significant effect other than pickups, electronics and strings is my aluminium neck Kramer. Given it has DiMarzio pickup and maple body as do some of my other basses, it has a greater hifi / clarity to the tone than my equivalent basses. It also has another effect which I can only best describe as 'playing itself', the strings respond very dynamically to playing, it has a great tactile feel. No other solid body bass I own does this (despite having the same strings / same scale length). I can reduce most of my basses sounding to sounding the same.