Hopeless live sound - all the gear, no idea.

[KevB]

True for larger venues and for bands that have the luxury of an onboard sound engineer but for us weekend warriors in pubs the the soundcheck is mainly about making sure there is a good mix of the whole band going out to the punters, the 'onstage' sound though important takes a secondary priority. No good it sounding great to each other if that doesn't get translated to what joe public is hearing at the bar. Frequently this also means that most backline doesn't go through the PA which can make it something of a juggling act.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435836872' post='2812858']
Fair enough, but frankly I've rarely encountered a guitarist with a large amp that doesn't abuse its power. Also I've met few guitarists who are sensitive to the needs of the overall sound of a band, whether it be economy of playing, volume, or frequency encroachment. So generally speaking (and from my own experience) I'd say an [i]average [/i]guitarist [i]probably [/i]needs no more than a 30W amp in [i]most [/i]circumstances... this either means that most guitarists are incapable of doing the right thing, OR I've just been unlucky with guitarists, OR I just don't revolve in those circles where the decent guitarists hang out... sorry if this seems arsy or whatever, but I have a fascination with guitarists and their habits, being a guitarist myself in other lives...
[/quote]I am also a guitarist, but just because lots of guitarists are idiots does not mean that its not wrong to make blanket statements about what power is "appropriate" for any given band. As bass players we'd be furious if we turned up with an 800W amp because we wanted lots of clean headroom and some guitarist said "what you using that for, you only need 300W, you don't know what you're doing, moron, you'll ruin the sound of the band...". 10W, 100W, 1000W. Doesn't matter. What matters is how you use that power. (Ironically, of course, the supposedly too loud 100W amps are not much louder (about 10%, all other things equal) than the supposedly acceptable 50W amps. )

[Dad3353]

The wattage is indeed irrelevant, as it's [i]potential maximum [/i]wattage. It's not indispensable to invoke all those watts; solely if the music calls for it. A saxophone can belt out very high sound pressure levels, as can a trumpet. Brass players don't play constantly with those tones. Guitars are similar; one doses to suit the song. Simple, really.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435841184' post='2812922']
I am also a guitarist, but just because lots of guitarists are idiots does not mean that its not wrong to make blanket statements about what power is "appropriate" for any given band. As bass players we'd be furious if we turned up with an 800W amp because we wanted lots of clean headroom and some guitarist said "what you using that for, you only need 300W, you don't know what you're doing, moron, you'll ruin the sound of the band...". 10W, 100W, 1000W. Doesn't matter. What matters is how you use that power. (Ironically, of course, the supposedly too loud 100W amps are not much louder (about 10%, all other things equal) than the supposedly acceptable 50W amps. )
[/quote]

Yeah but if I turned up with a 300w all valve bass head to play the local wine bar and then proceeded to state that I need to crank it up to make the valves really do their thing then I would rightly deserve to get shot down by the rest of the band and told "if you want to get an overdriven sound from a bass amp then a 300w head is far too powerful for this gig". I think that's the point being made here, a 100w all tube guitar amp with a 4 x 12 cab is not the rig for small - medium sized gigs[u][b] IF you want to get your sound by driving both the preamp and poweramp tubes to the edge[/b][/u]. And even on large gigs why so powerful? Your gonna put a mic in front of it anyhow so why use something so loud you're going to p155 off the rest of the band. If however you want a big powerful amp for overhead for clean sounds - knock yourself out but please make sure you eq it right as 4 x 12s are terrible for muddying up the sound if not eq'd sensibly.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1435850653' post='2813055']
Yeah but if I turned up with a 300w all valve bass head to play the local wine bar and then proceeded to state that I need to crank it up to make the valves really do their thing then I would rightly deserve to get shot down by the rest of the band and told "if you want to get an overdriven sound from a bass amp then a 300w head is far too powerful for this gig". I think that's the point being made here, a 100w all tube guitar amp with a 4 x 12 cab is not the rig for small - medium sized gigs[u][b] IF you want to get your sound by driving both the preamp and poweramp tubes to the edge[/b][/u]. And even on large gigs why so powerful? Your gonna put a mic in front of it anyhow so why use something so loud you're going to p155 off the rest of the band. If however you want a big powerful amp for overhead for clean sounds - knock yourself out but please make sure you eq it right as 4 x 12s are terrible for muddying up the sound if not eq'd sensibly.
[/quote]

[b]This is exactly the point I'm making[/b]. The point is that the[i] actual wattage value is utterly irrelevant[/i]. Its what you do with those watts that count. A 30W valve amp cranked up is completely inappropriate for a quiet jazz gig. A 100W valve amp is absolutely fine for small-medium gigs, [b]so long as you keep the volume at a sensible level. [/b] But according to the supposed accepted wisdom of bassists 30W guitar amps are fine but 100W guitar amps are overkill. Its nonsense!

Edited July 2, 2015 by uncle psychosis

[TimR]

Having played a 15" combo for years I've now switched to 2x 2x10" stacked vertically. The top speaker is now near my ears and my 500w amp is plenty loud enough set on 4.

The combo was 300w and loud enough for most venues but difficult to hear on stage due to the speaker being level with my calves.

[Dad3353]

Our bass amp is 200w, driving a horizontal 2 x 15 cab. If required, it would be heard over half a mile away. We don't use it at those volumes, but just sayin' that watts [i]per se[/i] don't mean much. Yes, our amp is a Hiwatt. Speaker size, watts an' all don't translate into volume, even before considering venue size (or outdoors..?) or musical genre (tearoom jazz or heavy metal..?). It's what the audience hears that counts, not the label on the back of the amp.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Dad3353

[ubit]

[quote name='40hz' timestamp='1435431887' post='2808791']


Sorry?? Where did I say I have multiple amps for differing venues?? And at any rate at large venues, a smaller amp can be miked up and fed through p.a.
[/quote]

It was a bit of humour as you seem to think that someone can pick and choose what amp he uses depending on venue size. My point is, the size of your amp, does not dictate the volume you will be playing at !

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435851744' post='2813072']
[b]This is exactly the point I'm making[/b]. The point is that the[i] actual wattage value is utterly irrelevant[/i]. Its what you do with those watts that count. A 30W valve amp cranked up is completely inappropriate for a quiet jazz gig. A 100W valve amp is absolutely fine for small-medium gigs, [b]so long as you keep the volume at a sensible level. [/b] But according to the supposed accepted wisdom of bassists 30W guitar amps are fine but 100W guitar amps are overkill. Its nonsense!
[/quote]

Well bassists generally have more leeway in terms of setting amp volume because only a small proportion of us relay on cranking an amp into a sweet spot to get an acceptable sound. Its much more an issue for guitarists and a cranked guitar valve amp is very loud even at modest official wattage levels. I previously owned a jcm800 50 watt head and never got to use it at more than about 1/3rd to 1/2 full volume even in decent sized venues, because I was running it at tickover all the time it sounded a bit sh*te. Hence 15-30 watts for a guitar valve amp is about the right amount of power for being able to run the amp hot at a typical small gig.

So yeah someone can use a 100 watt amp and turn it down but theres not much point in carting around a guitar valve amp and running at tickover (unless you only ever play a clean sound).

[KevB]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1435859429' post='2813164']
Having played a 15" combo for years I've now switched to 2x 2x10" stacked vertically. The top speaker is now near my ears and my 500w amp is plenty loud enough set on 4.

The combo was 300w and loud enough for most venues but difficult to hear on stage due to the speaker being level with my calves.
[/quote]

I use a 1x15 combo of about that wattage and 2x10 ext cab but go against regular convention and stack the 1x15 on top. It's not head height by any means but it raises it up to a more useful height and I can then get at the knobs easier (though I don't fiddle much once set up). Fortunately the 15'' speaker seems to have a very good range so I can get plenty of mid/high freqs through it if needed. The combo is a trace, ext 2x10 is SWR though I used to run a TE 4x10 ext at one time until my back said enough was enough.

Edited July 3, 2015 by KevB

[TimR]

Yes, the top end is very important for the definition.

The other thing I've found is that on big stages without multi-channel monitoring, you need to keep the backline tight. Having the bass amp miles away from the drums which are then miles away from the guitar amp is a recipie for incoherent sound.

[discreet]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435851744' post='2813072']
The point is that the[i] actual wattage value is utterly irrelevant[/i]. Its what you do with those watts that count.
[/quote]

Er...

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1435901750' post='2813385']
...the size of your amp, does not dictate the volume you will be playing at!
[/quote]

Um...

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435911267' post='2813452']
...there's not much point in carting around a guitar valve amp and running at tickover (unless you only ever play a clean sound).
[/quote]

Good point... and how much headroom do guitarists need? I've worked with a number of guitarists who need to drive their (valve) amps fairly hard to 'get their sound', so if using a large amp they would be excessively loud. Some guitarists get their sound with FX or modelling, in which case amp power doesn't matter and it's down to the (hopefully) good judgement of the individual guitarist.

IN MY OPINION, if a guitarist is getting his sound from overdriving his valve amp then generally speaking a 15 or 20W amp will be more than sufficient in [i]most [/i]circumstances. I know that if our guitarist turned up with a 100W half stack, questions would be asked...

[KevB]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1435926838' post='2813682']
Yes, the top end is very important for the definition.

The other thing I've found is that on big stages without multi-channel monitoring, you need to keep the backline tight. Having the bass amp miles away from the drums which are then miles away from the guitar amp is a recipie for incoherent sound.
[/quote]

Agree, I don't think I'll be troubled by any large stages in the near future with current band but from the limited times I've been on them in the past it really is a very different sound. It's easy to see why monitoring becomes a serious issue in these environments. Always found it a bit strange when people shy away from 15'' speakers - 'Oh no it'll be all muddy, all low end etc etc' but the one in my TE combo seems to deliver right up to fizzy top end without issue, not sure what it is though (Celestion maybe?) I don't think there's a separate horn in there.

Edited July 3, 2015 by KevB

[TimR]

By 'large' I mean anything bigger than a pub where you have enough room to move around a bit.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435911267' post='2813452']
So yeah someone can use a 100 watt amp and turn it down but theres not much point in carting around a guitar valve amp and running at tickover (unless you only ever play a clean sound).
[/quote]

Sorry, but this whole "opinion dressed up as fact" is exactly what annoys me.

[b]Big amps sound different to small amps[/b]. Just because [i]you[/i] did not like the sound of [i]your[/i] JCM800 turned down does not mean that its "pointless" for [i]anyone else[/i] to have a big amp and keep it at a sensible volume. I love the tone of the JC120---why is it wrong to have the master set at 1 or 2? Is there a magic spot on the dial where it becomes acceptable to use the amp? Big amps also [b]feel distinctly different[/b] to small amps---they respond to nuance in your playing differently. Why should those of us who like the response of big amps but know how to keep the volume sensible have to restrict ourselves just because of some arbitrary notion that 30W is all you ever need?

Not every guitarist needs to have cranked power tubes to get a tone they like. Lots do, many don't. For starters, you might like preamp distortion but not like power tube distortion---crank the pre and turn down the master. Tube distortion, sensible volume.

It would be really, really nice if bassists would stop assuming that everyone who has a big guitar amp is an idiot that doesn't know how to work it in conjunction with other instruments. Its a ridiculous notion that is incredibly disrespectful. I say again: If you turned up to an audition and the rest of the band had decided you were a moron before you'd played a note, just because they thought the number written on your amp was too big you'd be absolutely furious.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435927492' post]
IN MY OPINION, if a guitarist is getting his sound from overdriving his valve amp then generally speaking a 15 or 20W amp will be more than sufficient in [i]most [/i]circumstances. I know that if our guitarist turned up with a 100W half stack, questions would be asked...
[/quote]

Opinions are fine, and yes, for that very specific use case you don't "need" lots of power. But not everyone uses guitar amps like that. Maybe I'm being overly pedantic but the thing I object to is when an opinion on a specific use case becomes twisted into a generality and seemingly stated as fact - which bass players regularly seem to do when it comes to guitar amps and what a "reasonable" size is.

For all that we bassists like to present ourselves as the cerebral, reasonable, musical ones in a band we don't half like to make some totally nonsensical judgemental statements at times. ;-)

Edited July 3, 2015 by uncle psychosis

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435947426' post='2813953']
Opinions are fine, and yes, for that very specific use case you don't "need" lots of power. But not everyone uses guitar amps like that.
[/quote]

It somewhat of a generalisation but there are entire brands of guitar amplifiers where most of them are designed specifically to sound best when run hot, e.g. marshall, laney, H&K and a whole bunch of others. People often buy these amps (as I did) not realising this because they might not not too much about valve amps and/or maybe want the same amp their favourite player/band uses (neither of which are heinous crimes before you get on your high horse again). Aside from a minority of specialised models from those I've mentioned and others, the market for "rock" guitar amps doesn't cater very well for the practicalities of getting the best sounds at moderate volume levels (line 6 being the most obvious exception to that rule). Its a triumph of marketing over practicality, with bands up and down the country having to deal with the consequences of guitarists many of whom probably bought these amps with the best of intentions to get the best sound they could

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][quote]Maybe I'm being overly pedantic[/quote][/font][/color]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]You've basically decide that your going to be annoyed because people have the temerity to speak in generalisations which apply at least some of the time, rather than restrict themselves to universal truths with no exceptions (of which there are very few in anything related to music). Go ahead know yourself out.[/color][/font]

Edited July 3, 2015 by bassman7755

[TimR]

I suspect there is no smoke without fire and guitarists who don't crank their amps to 11 are the exception to the norm. Rather like drummers who can control their dynamics without resorting to using hot-rods.

Yes, they exist but they're in very short supply.

Swimming against the steam and complaining that all guitarists aren't like that is a bit of a pointless exercise.

You'll find a guitarist who cranks to 11 and a drummer who says "Drums don't have a volume knob you'll have to turn up to match me." are often found in the same band and looking for a bass player who can "Just play roots in this one."



.

Edited July 3, 2015 by TimR

[Dad3353]

I'll say it again. We rehearse in my home, in a 30 sq m room, with a low ceiling. We play pop rock, including AC/DC, Smashing Pumpkins, Noir Désir and more. Guitar 1 uses a Mesa 2:90, guitar 2 a 100w valve Marshall, the bass has 200w of KT88 Hiwatt goodness. We don't play to deafen ourselves, and we sound good. We use the same equipment when we play out, in pubs, small clubs, outside on the street, garden parties and festival stages. Our gear can handle any and all situations and sound good in all of them. One last time... There is no 'downside' to having a potentially powerful rig, if one has the musicality required. It's not a question of 'is the amp too big', but 'is the 'musician' really able to use it adequately for the occasion. I've seen groups, lots of groups. I've seen 'em with giant, big, small, tiny and piddling rigs. They all sounded good if used with appreciation of the venue. No exceptions. Some folks can't get it right. OK, I understand that, and I've seen 'em, too. That's not to say that there's some 'magic' about it. It's not the gear that's inadequate, it's the player. It's all in the fingers, you know.

[TimR]

But how old are you and how long have you all been playing?

Anyway, what about that 2nd guitarist...

[gjones]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1435429140' post='2808756']
Not everyone can be like you and be able to afford different amps for different sized venues though. Our guitarist has a 100w amp, which he has used in small pubs and large halls and even outdoor events.
[/quote]

And my guitarist has a 15 watt amp that he has used in tiny venues and 2000 seater theatres. Of course it took me a while to convince him it was all he needed.

Edited July 3, 2015 by gjones

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1435949814' post='2813991']
I suspect there is no smoke without fire and guitarists who don't crank their amps to 11 are the exception to the norm.
[/quote]

This just isn't true as far as I'm concerned. A sizable minority---if not in fact an actual majority---of guitarists get their distortion from pedals these days. Modern guitarists are accutely aware that cranking your 100W amp into power amp distortion isn't particularly practical. Visit any guitar forum and you'll see that "I want an amp that sounds like this, except quieter" is an exceedingly common question. Guitarists using either modellers or clean amp + pedals are really, really common precisely because of the volume problem associated with valve distortion.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1435949101' post='2813976']
It somewhat of a generalisation but there are entire brands of guitar amplifiers where most of them are designed specifically to sound best when run hot, e.g. marshall, laney, H&K and a whole bunch of others. People often buy these amps (as I did) not realising this because they might not not too much about valve amps and/or maybe want the same amp their favourite player/band uses (neither of which are heinous crimes before you get on your high horse again). Aside from a minority of specialised models from those I've mentioned and others, the market for "rock" guitar amps doesn't cater very well for the practicalities of getting the best sounds at moderate volume levels (line 6 being the most obvious exception to that rule). Its a triumph of marketing over practicality, with bands up and down the country having to deal with the consequences of guitarists many of whom probably bought these amps with the best of intentions to get the best sound they could [/quote]

So, err, you bought an amp despite not knowing anything about it, and therefore all guitarists must be like that? Erm...No.

No modern rock amps have volume controls?

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828][quote]You've basically decide that your going to be annoyed because people have the temerity to speak in generalisations which apply at least some of the time, rather than restrict themselves to universal truths with no exceptions (of which there are very few in anything related to music). Go ahead know yourself out.[/color][/font]
[/quote]

No, I'm annoyed because some people are incapable of thinking outside their own narrow worldview and instead to prefer to talk in rude, presumptive, insulting generalities about their fellow musicians.

Why anyone chooses to be in a band these days I don't know. Apparently all guitarists are idiots and no drummers can play.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1435950742' post='2814000']
But how old are you and how long have you all been playing?

Anyway, what about that 2nd guitarist...
[/quote]

I'm the old-timer, our sons and the other two are late twenties-late thirties. I don't count, I've been playing since 'back then', and anyway, it's drums, so no wattage problem. Our eldest is the most experienced, having toured France with a ska-punk-rock formation for several years. Our youngest, on bass, has only ever played in our band; this for five years or so. What's the deal with guitar 2..? I often pull his leg to get him to turn up, as he's very often too low in the mix for my old, tired ears. It's fine for those out front, but deafening, he isn't. I forget which model Marshall he uses; it has four channels, 100w into a 1960A 4x12. Classic guitar half-stack. Yes, the guitars use pedals (damn good'uns, too...), but haven't always relied on them. Our eldest started out with a 30w Marshall combo, then a Laney VC50 (which breathed fire; very difficult to tame, but superb once mastered...), then the Mesa Simul into a Mesa 4x12 and a Marshall 4x10 (it's a 2-channel amp, 2x90 Mesa valve watts...). Have I left anything out..?

[TimR]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1435953356' post='2814016']


...

Why anyone chooses to be in a band these days I don't know. Apparently all guitarists are idiots and no drummers can play.
[/quote]

I suppose you missed the smiley.

Anyway. I said the good ones were in short supply.

Generally they're in high demand and already playing in bands.

I'm guessing you've not had to audition anyone recently.