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Current Class A/B amps?


fretmeister
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Good question!

Having had all the "experts" convince us that lightweight Class D is the way to go, they are now all saying that the only way to get proper "heft/slam/thump/(insert adjective here)" is to go back to bulky, heavy amps with big manly transformers in them... :rolleyes:

I knew I should have kept my old Trace Elliot gear! :P

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[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1435326544' post='2807747']Having had all the "experts" convince us that lightweight Class D is the way to go, they are now all saying that the only way to get proper "heft/slam/thump/(insert adjective here)" is to go back to bulky, heavy amps with big manly transformers in them... :rolleyes:[/quote]

It isn't - it's just having an amp that can do the amount of power you need for a full note length. With some of the optimistically specced Class D amps you might need a '900W' amp whilst a Class AB that can do its 300W continuously might have similar heft and loudness. But it isn't the Class D or Class AB thing that makes the difference, it's the power supply. The iAmp 800 was Class D with a traditional power supply. The Markbass LM2 was Class AB with an SMPS.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1435327093' post='2807761']
It isn't - it's just having an amp that can do the amount of power you need for a full note length. With some of the optimistically specced Class D amps you might need a '900W' amp whilst a Class AB that can do its 300W continuously might have similar heft and loudness. But it isn't the Class D or Class AB thing that makes the difference, it's the power supply. The iAmp 800 was Class D with a traditional power supply. The Markbass LM2 was Class AB with an SMPS.
[/quote]

I didn't know that.

I assume that's why my Demeter pisses all over 99% of Class D amps I've ever tried

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[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1435326544' post='2807747']
Good question!

Having had all the "experts" convince us that lightweight Class D is the way to go, they are now all saying that the only way to get proper "heft/slam/thump/(insert adjective here)" is to go back to bulky, heavy amps with big manly transformers in them... :rolleyes:

I knew I should have kept my old Trace Elliot gear! :P
[/quote]

Hmm experts huh..?? :lol: :lol:
Never been convinced by class D or NEO for that matter...
IME, you might get away with one OR the other, but the worst case would be to have both.

Sure, some people use them and do ok enough but they'll be a compromise made over the sound, IMO.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1435327093' post='2807761']
It isn't - it's just having an amp that can do the amount of power you need for a full note length. With some of the optimistically specced Class D amps you might need a '900W' amp whilst a Class AB that can do its 300W continuously might have similar heft and loudness. But it isn't the Class D or Class AB thing that makes the difference, it's the power supply. The iAmp 800 was Class D with a traditional power supply. The Markbass LM2 was Class AB with an SMPS.
[/quote]

In the competition to make the smallest and lightest amplifiers I'd suggest that maybe power supplies were shrunk and squeezed in to confined spaces and thus may be unable to provide the power source required for that all important girth.

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My Flightcase has a SMPS, is Class D and has Neo's as does my PB300. A small lightweight practice amp + gig rig.

Previous to this I usually gigged with a Peavey Max160 head + Ampeg B115E. So a complete change from a standard discrete SS amp + ceramic 15" to a smaller lighter rig.

I A/B'd the 2 rigs as I was so reluctant to swop my trusted older rig. I was always happy with it volume and tonewise. It has been totaly reliable over several years and not that heavy compared to some.

The PJB has very effective tone controls, is more refined and both my basses are brighter. The impression I get is that the overall sound is more precise. I would not say it was cold or clinical just more defined.

The loudness of 400W to my previous 120W is discernable and I guess feels about 50% to maybe twice as loud.

The PJB seems to project more and I'm still finding out where I like to stand wrt the cab.

The differences are immediatley apparent, I still like both rigs but with my hearing now impaired the PJB is winning, SMPS, Class D and Neo's.

Having said all above, the first PJB I had was a Briefcase. This was Class AB and had ceramic pirahna speakers. I found it to be just that little bit warmer than the Flightcase.

Edited by grandad
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Big fan of older Trace gear here but despite current production not sure they're classed as modern...

EBS used to use 'normal' power supplies and output stages so I assume most models still do. I can't justify it and I'm perfectly happy with my gear but a HD350 would be a welcome as a studio (and live I guess) tool.

SWR also largely made (are they still making?) conventional SS amps too. I always liked these, not the workingmans so much but the larger SM series kick ass.

On a budget, I was quiite happy with some Laney kit I used at short notice a few years back. I think it was an RB series? 300w, 7 band graphic and a compressor. Plenty of power and decent build and I believe still current production.

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Seeing as almost all of the major players in live sound reinforcement are producing insanely powerful and efficient Class D solutions now (look at the d&b web site - everything is class D), I think a lot of people are spouting a little bit of misinformed prejudice against Class D amplifiers. There's a whole lot more to a bass amp than just the power amp section - the preamp design, the EQ, the power supply etc. All of these things are important, and if all of these are designed well there's no reason why a Class D can't perform as well as a class A/B.

I really think people are having rose tinted... er... ear syndrome when it comes to the amps of yesteryear. A few years ago not a single person was extolling the virtues of their 'trusy Trace AH600SMX'. Now it seems that because of all this new Class D muck, they and other A/Bs are suddenly the greatest amp ever designed. Remember what you are comparing - lots of people are comparing say the GK MB500 - a £450 amp against top of the range Trace gear from the 90s which cost £1K plus, with the best quality pre-amps, power sections and PSUs that money could buy. Hardly a fair comparison! If you whack your bass through a nice pre-amp into one of the new top of the range Crown or d&b Class Ds power amps, I hardly think you are going to be 'lacking heft'. They are ridiculously good!

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[quote name='Reverend' timestamp='1435399919' post='2808397']
Seeing as almost all of the major players in live sound reinforcement are producing insanely powerful and efficient Class D solutions now (look at the d&b web site - everything is class D), I think a lot of people are spouting a little bit of misinformed prejudice against Class D amplifiers. There's a whole lot more to a bass amp than just the power amp section - the preamp design, the EQ, the power supply etc. All of these things are important, and if all of these are designed well there's no reason why a Class D can't perform as well as a class A/B.

I really think people are having rose tinted... er... ear syndrome when it comes to the amps of yesteryear. A few years ago not a single person was extolling the virtues of their 'trusy Trace AH600SMX'. Now it seems that because of all this new Class D muck, they and other A/Bs are suddenly the greatest amp ever designed. Remember what you are comparing - lots of people are comparing say the GK MB500 - a £450 amp against top of the range Trace gear from the 90s which cost £1K plus, with the best quality pre-amps, power sections and PSUs that money could buy. Hardly a fair comparison! If you whack your bass through a nice pre-amp into one of the new top of the range Crown or d&b Class Ds power amps, I hardly think you are going to be 'lacking heft'. They are ridiculously good!
[/quote]

I don't think the Crown or D&B stuff uses the same ICEPower module as the lightweight heads being discussed here.

Until that changes, I think there's a lot of truth being spoken here.

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Nope, you're right, I was merely using the PA comparison to prove a point - my beef is that people seem to be worried about Class D as a concept, but in reality there are other factors which are just as important which seem to be holding some of these products back - especially at the lower end of the price point spectrum.

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[quote name='Reverend' timestamp='1435400611' post='2808405']
Nope, you're right, I was merely using the PA comparison to prove a point - my beef is that people seem to be worried about Class D as a concept, but in reality there are other factors which are just as important which seem to be holding some of these products back - especially at the lower end of the price point spectrum.
[/quote]

Exactly. There is no inherent problem with Class D, it's just the way it's implemented. The same as the CD vs Vinyl argument really: CD can indistinguishably[size=4] reproduce [/size][size=4]everything that a vinyl can - it's the modern production techniques that people don't like. Copy a vinyl to CD at home (with no data compression), and the CD will sound just like the Vinyl![/size]

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I've heard as many bass players sounding terrible through SS amps as I've heard sounding terrible through valve amps and sounding terrible though class D amps.

If anyone can't sound good through a particular amp, then it's down to them, because there are other players out there who will make the same amp sound great.

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[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1435400215' post='2808398']
I don't think the Crown or D&B stuff uses the same ICEPower module as the lightweight heads being discussed here.

Until that changes, I think there's a lot of truth being spoken here.
[/quote]

Not all bass amp makers doing uber-lightweight small heads use the same ICE modules either though (although many do), and even among the ones who do, IME they don't all sound the same. So my take is that implementation is everything, same as it ever was. I didn't really like very many old school amps back when they were contemporary, don't really like too many new ones either. Yet I sound just like me through just about anything. Doesn't keep me from still trying to improve the sound reinforcement aspect though -- maybe I'll get it right in the next forty years!

Edited by Passinwind
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Guest bassman7755

[quote name='Reverend' timestamp='1435399919' post='2808397']
Seeing as almost all of the major players in live sound reinforcement are producing insanely powerful and efficient Class D solutions now (look at the d&b web site - everything is class D), I think a lot of people are spouting a little bit of misinformed prejudice against Class D amplifiers. There's a whole lot more to a bass amp than just the power amp section - the preamp design, the EQ, the power supply etc. All of these things are important, and if all of these are designed well there's no reason why a Class D can't perform as well as a class A/B.
[/quote]

I've not noticed any particular deficiency in any of my class D amps compared to say my QSC PLX.

Edited by bassman7755
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