tbonepete Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Greetings bass cognoscenti, I've been pondering lately the answer to this question, as I'm always on the trail of the perfect sound..... I must point out that up to now I've failed 100% of the time (at least for my own satisfaction). The question is, At what point is sitting in the mix counterproductive? Is there such a thing as being so far IN the mix as to not be completely sure of what it is exactly that you are playing?. It's at this point the master volume gets used (I'm not alone in this, and the question is a general one, not aimed just at me). If I'm playing one combo I can play at a moderate volume, hear myself clearly, not deafen the vox infront of me, and all is well on stage, BUT if I use another combo the sound is altogether more muddy, boomy, and deafens the vox, BUT sits in the mix out front nicely, BUT (2) I can't hear a bloody thing except wooly mud. Quick answer would be to use combo A, and ditch combo B. Nice and simple, however I'm for moving on combo A as I just don't identify with the manufacturers modus operandi. I have a feeling it could be a bigger issue than just me, ie, a full mix for the benefit of the whole band, as opposed to six individuals playing at the same time, and fighting for the sonic real estate? I just don't know...... Hmmmm. Thanks for looking, if you have any thoughts on the wider problem of band mixes please impart your wisdom. Cheers Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Dump both combo's and get an amp and cab that sounds right, everyone can hear clearly and gives you a great sound. Edited July 1, 2015 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yeah, two combos isn't a great way to get a great sound. How are they connected? Are they both the same? Better to use a combo and add an extension speaker if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 This is a very difficult question to answer! A lot depends on your setup. There are so many variables that usually compromise is needed. Are you and the band reliant on your backline to be heard? Or do you have a PA through which you all go? Either way, from where you're stood on the stage a "good mix" (as in overall balance) shouldn't be the priority. As a bass player drums should be clearly audible to you, particularly Kick, Snare & Hi-hat. You have to trust the judgement of someone out front, whether it's a FOH engineer or a friend that is at least a little knowledgeable as to how things should sound. A good sound and mix to you on stage will likely sound abysmal out front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonepete Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I think I better clarify. I briefly thought about putting this in Amps, and. cabs, BUT, as it's a question about music within a band context, and NOT a question about equipment I put it in this forum. Combo in this instance was used to describe equipment A, and B, and in one instance is an actual combo, but the other is amp and cabs, BUT as this isn't an equipment question that's largely irrelavent. The question is about music as a whole, and not just the bass, so is it better to be so far in the mix to the point where one is having a hard job distinguishing what one is playing (but is complimented from those out front), or should the focus be on the stage sound and bugger everyone else? It's a bit simplistic I know, but I want to point out that the question is A not aimed just at me, and B, it's still not an amps and cabs question. Is a whole band mix possible without falling out, and if so are there any sources of reference for sonic bliss in a live context. I've looked extensively at mixing with reference to studio recording, but these "rules" don't always translate well in a live context. Blimey, I'm confusing myself now........... But it's still not a question about my gear!!!! Cheers Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 If it sounds right, it is right. That's the only rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 To me, if you are playing in a band you have to sit in the mix; saying that, there is also the being heard issue, the having a decent onstage sound so that you enjoy playing issue. This is currently a work in progress, after listening to my 'gorgeous tone' out front thanks to a wireless transmitter and listening to the abject chaos of the onstage sound at the same gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sitting in the mix to me means having your own sonic space where you can be heard, support the sound as a bass should and not step on any other band member's toes. A muddy, boomy mess might fill out the sound, but it's not musical. A shrill, cutting sound might accentuate what you're playing, but it doesn't fulfil part of the bass player's remit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonepete Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1435763081' post='2812231'] Sitting in the mix to me means having your own sonic space where you can be heard, support the sound as a bass should and not step on any other band member's toes. A muddy, boomy mess might fill out the sound, but it's not musical. A shrill, cutting sound might accentuate what you're playing, but it doesn't fulfil part of the bass player's remit. [/quote] Thank you for the post, it admirably describes the problem, but how to rectify......... That's the issue. Of course the answer will be different according to line up, genre, venue, etc, but still it's a problem worth trying to solve (or not)?. At the bottom there's the kick drum, some of the toms might be in the middle, valve driven guitar amps, and Hammond type organs/Rhodes type pianos also in the mids, cymbals at the top, and that's not even including the vox which are arguably the most important , so where's the bass supposed to fit in????. Happy bassist on stage with crap out front sound or muddy thud on stage and happy audience? Financially of course it's the audience that should win, but it would be nice to have a little fun myself too!, lol. Cheers Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 If it came down to either audience or myself, audience would win. However I can`t see that as being much fun. I`ve previously found that having an on-stage sound that I`m not too keen on, middy and nasally, translates really well out front, whereas having a good bassy yet defined top-end sound on-stage ends up as mush out front. Sometimes the flat sound of the instrument is what works best, unless after a really specific sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1435764315' post='2812245'] Sometimes the flat sound of the instrument is what works best, unless after a really specific sound. [/quote] Plus about a billion. Keeping it simple live is where it's at, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) [quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1435763648' post='2812236'] Thank you for the post, it admirably describes the problem, but how to rectify......... That's the issue. Of course the answer will be different according to line up, genre, venue, etc, but still it's a problem worth trying to solve (or not)?. At the bottom there's the kick drum, some of the toms might be in the middle, valve driven guitar amps, and Hammond type organs/Rhodes type pianos also in the mids, cymbals at the top, and that's not even including the vox which are arguably the most important , so where's the bass supposed to fit in????. Happy bassist on stage with crap out front sound or muddy thud on stage and happy audience? Financially of course it's the audience that should win, but it would be nice to have a little fun myself too!, lol. Cheers Pete. [/quote]I found what works for me is a cab with a low mid range voicing, they sound bad soloed at home, but great in band situation. The first cab I had that achieved this was a Schroeder 1212L. I would have the EQ on my amp (a Mark Bass LMll at the time) set flat and just go with the voicing of the cab, sometimes adjusting the EQ for odd venue acoustics (this was rare). When I first got the cab home I hated it, but the good counsel of BCers told to hold fire until I'd used it live, they were right. Since then I've moved onto Phil Jones gear. My current rig still has the pronounced, low mid range of my previous set up, but it just sounds more refined, more hifi if you will, and is smaller and lighter. Listen to some other bands live (in a similar setting that you play in), listen for what you think sounds good and then have a chat with the bass player in the break. Obviously a player using a similar bass to you will help narrow down your search. Conversely, you can go to a dedicated bass store and ask their advice. EDIT: Synchronicity at work, I just saw this in the for sale section http://basschat.co.uk/topic/256385-fs-schroeder-1515l-cab-l250/page__fromsearch__1 add amp of your choosing. Edited July 1, 2015 by ezbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I think it's a false dichotomy as you can have both reasonable on-stage sound and good out-front sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonepete Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Thanks, Some good posts, and food for thought. It's still not a question about amps and cabs, mine or otherwise, but more about the lot of a bass player in the mix when all around him/ her are wanting to be bassists as well (ie left hand heavy keys, saturated guitar with bass cranked up etc.). My own experience is that the theatre work I do is no problem as a) the band of what ever size has written parts, and generally these are nicely separated in terms of frequencies, and sound patches. it would largely be iem for the whole band with personal mix via cat5 Roland mixers for all. Live function work however is a different kettle of fish! A) venue varies each time, the material varies more than a typical theatre show, c) guitar, and keys are required to use different sounds for different songs (each seemingly louder and more bass heavy than the last! Hehe), so what bass sound that's good for one song is bobbins for another song! Personally for the type of work I do I'm not interested in using gear based on reviews that contain the words growl, and punch, as I want to make music not have a fight. My own equipment contains loud, clean and modular pieces, and I'm not looking to buy more, or different stuff which will ultimately not change anything for me in terms of sitting, or fitting in the mix. Cheers Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonepete Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1435768448' post='2812293'] I think it's a false dichotomy as you can have both reasonable on-stage sound and good out-front sound. [/quote] Yes, that's the aim, but HOW? when there's so much going on in the area of frequencies that the bass has to play in? Whole band mix anybody? Cheers Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Badderer Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 If you are finding the keys and guitars are coming into bass territory and the mix is becoming muddy as a result, the most important piece of equipment you can all use, is your brain, ears and mouths. You as a band need to have a sit down discussion (not a shouting match) about what the overall aim of your mix is. It may be worth even bringing in a song or a youtube tutorial about mixing for people to understand where their place in the mix is. A lot of people like to set up "their" sound in the comfort of their own home and then bring it to band practice and refuse to change their sound because they've invested lots of time and emotion in moulding this sound to their ears at home in their room. (this is the wrong approach to sound on numerous levels) The best way to have a cohesive band sound is to have a discussion about which frequency ranges you all need to operate in for the mix to sound full but not muddy. People need to be prepared to have an experiment with the band sound, spending time changing their EQ / which pick ups they're using etc. to find the sonic spectrum that makes the overall sound work best. Also Keys players need to know when they can and can't use their left hands low down and when they need to move up the register or when to just play with the right hand. The most important thing is to work together and talk about it together. If you can't it just means your mix will never be totally cohesive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1435768627' post='2812297']...more about the lot of a bass player in the mix when all around him/ her are wanting to be bassists as well (ie left hand heavy keys, saturated guitar with bass cranked up etc.)... [/quote] There is no 'magic bullet' for the situation described here. A prerequisite to getting a good sound which fulfills the 3 criteria (in order: good for the audience, good for the band and good for the yourself...) is comprehensive and competent partners. If they'r not playing to the same song sheet, you'll always lose out. You make the comparison yourself; in your 'pit' work, this problem doesn't arise. You'll have to get your colleagues to have the same approach as the orchestral guys. If that can't be done, give the audience your best and grit your teeth, snarling. Cooperation is what you're after, I'd say. I can't recommend a stockist, though, as I already have enough; my band mates are already up to speed. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonepete Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1435771917' post='2812328'] There is no 'magic bullet' for the situation described here. A prerequisite to getting a good sound which fulfills the 3 criteria (in order: good for the audience, good for the band and good for the yourself...) is comprehensive and competent partners. If they'r not playing to the same song sheet, you'll always lose out. You make the comparison yourself; in your 'pit' work, this problem doesn't arise. You'll have to get your colleagues to have the same approach as the orchestral guys. If that can't be done, give the audience your best and grit your teeth, snarling. Cooperation is what you're after, I'd say. I can't recommend a stockist, though, as I already have enough; my band mates are already up to speed. Sorry. [/quote] And we have a winner!!! Hmmm, gritted teeth you say.... Might try that. The function band is at my request going to have a half day at a venue where we can try various things out including a sound balance at proper gig volume in a proper venue. Things just can't get sorted by using a small practice studio room with sound deadening panels etc, and neither can home volume eq settings work at gig volumes with other real players (as opposed to play a long type music). I was recently told by a fine Hammond player of a renowned sound engineer who when asked how he eq' for orchestra replied that the composer had already done that for him! Carefully paying mind to the sound as a whole and not too much treading on each other's toes I guess. It's kind of "get off my land" but in a musical context, and hopefully much more humour, and better musical results (I hope!). Cheers Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 You play with professionals and it'll work. Play with amateurs, the selfish or the thoughtless and you get all the problems you're describing. How good are your man management skills? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1435772876' post='2812344'] And we have a winner!!!... ... [/quote] Credit where it's due; this (below...) was being posted at the same time, and has pragmatic, practical advice as to how to achieve this fine balance. It can be done, quite easily, once all band members are working towards the same objective with open ears. Good luck with it all; it's very satisfying when it's all glueing together. [quote name='The Badderer' timestamp='1435771783' post='2812327'] If you are finding the keys and guitars are coming into bass territory and the mix is becoming muddy as a result, the most important piece of equipment you can all use, is your brain, ears and mouths. You as a band need to have a sit down discussion (not a shouting match) about what the overall aim of your mix is. It may be worth even bringing in a song or a youtube tutorial about mixing for people to understand where their place in the mix is. A lot of people like to set up "their" sound in the comfort of their own home and then bring it to band practice and refuse to change their sound because they've invested lots of time and emotion in moulding this sound to their ears at home in their room. (this is the wrong approach to sound on numerous levels) The best way to have a cohesive band sound is to have a discussion about which frequency ranges you all need to operate in for the mix to sound full but not muddy. People need to be prepared to have an experiment with the band sound, spending time changing their EQ / which pick ups they're using etc. to find the sonic spectrum that makes the overall sound work best. Also Keys players need to know when they can and can't use their left hands low down and when they need to move up the register or when to just play with the right hand. The most important thing is to work together and talk about it together. If you can't it just means your mix will never be totally cohesive. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1435768627' post='2812297'] I'm not interested in using gear based on reviews that contain the words growl, and punch, as I want to make music not have a fight. [/quote] Quote of the month? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 T o me, if you sit in the mix and can't hear yourself then that mix is wrong. IT isn't so much a question of level, it is about hearing your bass and how the band mixes its entire sonic space. If you are go turning up everything, you'll balt the mix and be too loud anyway. It is a fight no one really wins as even if they can hear themselves, the band sound awful. You want to layer the instruments not crash them thru a wall of sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonepete Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1435773794' post='2812357'] Credit where it's due; this (below...) was being posted at the same time, and has pragmatic, practical advice as to how to achieve this fine balance. It can be done, quite easily, once all band members are working towards the same objective with open ears. Good luck with it all; it's very satisfying when it's all glueing together. [/quote] Yes, absolutely. I Also was responding to your post whilst others were coming through. iPad is being a bit strange today after an update. Thanks to all, I'm looking forward to having a proper gig type rehearsal to sort out the toe treading sound issues so that we can all be happy. The result of which should be a MUCH better band too, so that has to be a good thing! Cheers Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 [sharedmedia=core:attachments:167485] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sitting in the mix only happens when the whole band work together. I've actually walked upto the guitard rigs & rolled the bass back, even offered to swap instruments. It'd be worth your band's while for you to all sit & have a chat just before rehearsal & then do some knob twiddling. If you know a sound engineer, ask if they'll sort out the sounds. Like Lozz says, that great tone you, the guitarist & the keys player get at home will most likely sound crap in a band context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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