leschirons Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Played with a guitarist a while back who had heard someone make a comment about one of his solos which, to be honest, was a bit sad with quite a few bum notes in there (no, it wasn't jazz before any joker asks) I understand that no-one likes criticism however, his argument was that the guy wasn't qualified to make a comment as he was not a musician. My personal view is that if something is not good, it's not good. It's not as if he was playing anything so way out and clever that he could employ the "I think it went over their heads" argument I believe that if someone is into music appreciation, as opposed to actually playing it, they're more than qualified to say what does, or does not, sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 TBH there is no right or wrong in music (playing) its just how other people perceive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Anyone can criticise anyone else and offer advice etc You are also free to not take the blindest bit of notice of said advice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I have no cheesemaking skills whatsoever. Does that mean if a cheesemaker hands me a piece of defective cheese I have to just chow down with a straight face and say "mmm, that's delicious"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 If a note is out of key, and can be heard to be out of key, whether or not the listener has any musical theory, that`s what their ears are telling them. They may not be able to advise on how to play the right note, but they can tell if a solo etc is played out of key. No qualifications needed for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 'So sick of all my judges, so scared of what they'll find' I think reacting badly to criticism is only human, and usually our first response. The fact that we suspect our critics are right doesn't make it easier. If a band mate is criticised the best bet is to be supportive, they won't play better second set if they've been attacked and the band doesn't rally round. The thing about criticism is to ask why it is being offered, is it constructive and intended to be helpful, or just a piece of unpleasantness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I'd be totally qualified to criticise this guy as I also play guitar badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Badderer Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 In the situation you describe, I'd interpret it as someone insecure about their skills trying to palm off something that hurts them through denial "their opinion doesn't count... they're idiots and don't know what they're talking about"... He obviously knows he played a bad solo, and you obviously know he played a bad solo. Sometimes you need to get down to the actual thing that needs sorting out, which is maybe he (or she, but sounds like a he) needs to up their practice / skill level so that they feel more secure, or maybe they need to play something less challenging so they build their confidence with good performances. I'd certainly say a conversation about it needs to be had when the time is right and don't go trampling their feelings because they'll just react with denial towards you too. The more skilled and qualified you are the more valid someones criticism, but it doesn't mean that someone unskilled can't spot that you are playing a bunch of wrong notes. In fact it's a bit worse if someone with little musical training can spot that it's not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) [quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1435827871' post='2812713'] A couple of other people here France, not BC) agreed with the guitarist. [/quote] I'm half French and therefore entitled to be an arse, too. Edited July 2, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1435826939' post='2812689'] I have no cheesemaking skills whatsoever. Does that mean if a cheesemaker hands me a piece of defective cheese I have to just chow down with a straight face and say "mmm, that's delicious"? [/quote] Well, quite. That's the last time I go for lunch at Alex bloody James' house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1435828018' post='2812718'] Well, quite. That's the last time I go for lunch at Alex bloody James' house! [/quote] Though you [i]are [/i]qualified to criticise his bass playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Just to add, this is not someone I play with in a regular band, it was a one off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Badderer Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) [quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1435828140' post='2812722'] Just to add, this is not someone I play with in a regular band, it was a one off. [/quote] in that case I'd stay out of it. If someone is reacting like that, if you're not going to get through to them, you really need to have a good enough friendship that they can hear what you're trying to say, rather than just hearing criticism and reacting defensively. Edited July 2, 2015 by The Badderer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The guitarist shold have owned up. Receiving adverse criticism is not a comfortable experience but if you think you are any good at what you do, you should be able to accept the opinion of others, and know if it is justified or not. Maybe he didn't know he cocked up. That would be worrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I think the guitarist does have a point. Sadly though it's a bum point. Then again, I'm not a pointillist, so I'm not qualified to comment. So I won't. Seriously though, if we may take your description of the music and the bum notes for granted, he's simply wrong. The vast body of music enjoyers are adequately equipped to hear bum notes like the ones you describe. Being a musician does not come into the picture at all. Musicality does of course come in all kinds of varieties, as does formal music education, but higher levels of both only mean one can judge more advanced types of music with more confidence. It does not even mean one is right (though chances of that do grow IME). As a point in case, I've been discussing pop and rock music with some of the great composers of new classical music. How they missed the boat (IMHO of course), as they only saw popular music's formal simplicity, and seemed unable to grasp that there's more to it than being advanced on paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJE Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Most people you play for when you are in a band will be 'unqualified' but even people who dont play an instrument know when something isn't right. Criticism isnt easy to take in any aspects of life, but someone once told me the three worst things you can criticise someone for are, their driving, their skills in the bedroom and their music. If someone comes up to you and starts ranting about how rubbish you are with mallice, it is very unpleasant but it should be taken with some tact and you just walk away. Sometimes you need to be critical to make someone better and learning to take that gracefully without getting angry and making excuses such as 'their opinion doesnt count they dont play" is in my opinion, a very big part of being a mature musician and a 'grown-up'. I am in a band with someone that gets angry, chucks his toys out and will blame everything under the sun if you point out a mistake he makes. These are usually the same mistakes that need rectifying for the good of the band, but its not seen that way and he just behaves like a child and has a strop. For me its a sign of a very insecure and immature musician/person and if I had my way I would rather not have him in the band but its not my call. In short, take friendly criticism with some grace and humility and see it as someone trying to help. If that criticism is aimed at antagonising and upsetting you, walk away and call them a c*ck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435828015' post='2812717'] I'm half French and therefore entitled to be an arse, too. [/quote] Half an arse surely? A buttock perhaps? I stooped to pick one up the other day... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgb7G9MPm-g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1435826711' post='2812685'] Played with a guitarist a while back who had heard someone make a comment about one of his solos which, to be honest, was a bit sad with quite a few bum notes in there (no, it wasn't jazz before any joker asks) I understand that no-one likes criticism however, his argument was that the guy wasn't qualified to make a comment as he was not a musician. My personal view is that if something is not good, it's not good. It's not as if he was playing anything so way out and clever that he could employ the "I think it went over their heads" argument I believe that if someone is into music appreciation, as opposed to actually playing it, they're more than qualified to say what does, or does not, sound good. [/quote] My question would be, what would his response be to someone who said his solo was fantastic, would he equally think that person was qualified to make that comment because they are not a musician? I doubt it. It's easy to accept praise for what you do as a performer and consider it valid but not so easy the other way round. Personally I self validate what I do as a player and that determines how I feel about a gig and decide for myself whether for me it was fantastic or below par. I am gracious to anyone who makes comments on what they experienced at the gig and/or my playing good or bad and try to engage with them how they reached their view. It's a good way of understanding your audience. From my experience most punters don't hear music in the same deconstructed way that we do as musicians so if something was sounding off they are not always able to identify what specifically or who in particular was responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 If you've been using your ears all your life I think you are eminently qualified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1435827849' post='2812711'] 'So sick of all my judges, so scared of what they'll find' I think reacting badly to criticism is only human, and usually our first response. The fact that we suspect our critics are right doesn't make it easier. If a band mate is criticised the best bet is to be supportive, they won't play better second set if they've been attacked and the band doesn't rally round. The thing about criticism is to ask why it is being offered, is it constructive and intended to be helpful, or just a piece of unpleasantness. [/quote] I agree. It's not who criticises or maybe even the way they criticise, it's how you receive the criticism. Following one gig I recieved a two page A4 email from a well meaning bass player. I still have it somewhere. A third of it was rubbish and just covered what he thought the band should do. A third of it was quite complimentary. The other third was pretty accurate on where we, as a band, we're going wrong. Quite a lot of it we already knew Mainly covering aspects of individual musicianship and image. Unfortunately the individual musicians didn't like being told some home truths about themselves but agreed on the points made about the other musician. Hey ho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 No you don't need to be qualified to criticise - I'm no professional footballer but I've seen some terrible penalty taking by members of the England squad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I've bought the beer or ticket... and I'll know whether I like what I hear. How relevant that is to the situation or whether they welcome comment doesn't really matter. I'm no harder on anyone else than I am in my own bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-string-thing Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Yup, don't need to own a Rolls Royce to know it's a better car than a Reliant Robin... No offence to Reliant owners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1435827885' post='2812714'] I'd be totally qualified to criticise this guy as I also play guitar badly. [/quote] PMSL cheered me up no end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ern500evo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 [quote name='NJE' timestamp='1435829166' post='2812736'] I am in a band with someone that gets angry, chucks his toys out and will blame everything under the sun if you point out a mistake he makes. These are usually the same mistakes that need rectifying for the good of the band, but its not seen that way and he just behaves like a child and has a strop. For me its a sign of a very insecure and immature musician/person and if I had my way I would rather not have him in the band but its not my call. [/quote] I think we must be in the same band!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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