Are We Being Conned?

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1442960847' post='2871036']


Or you could have a pedal assembled in the Far East.........?
[/quote]

End result for the user would be the same so yeah, If it cost less I'm all for that.

I do appreciate why the small companies have to charge more, but I feel most of that is for parts and labour, not for better quality that most people can benefit from in the real world.
Saying that, I'm not against paying more for something I really want, but I don't always feel I get my money's worth.

Edited September 23, 2015 by dave_bass5

[chriswareham]

With Darkglass and Demeter (the only "boutique" brands I've ever bought), they do use very high quality components. When the Darkglass B3K was being assembled in the US there was a very informative YouTube video that pointed out where particularly good components had been used, notably the footswitch, and how the design favoured durability over speed of assembly with nosockets soldered direct to the PCB for example.

Could these be assembled in the he Far East with the same components? Yes. Would the end result be cheaper? Doubtful, as the volume they are made and sold at would mean that economies of scale wouldn't kick in.

[Japhet]

The issues are highlighted when a decent brand shifts production to the far east (like Eden). Cheap components can ruin a hard earned reputation, especially when the price doesn't change.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1442996412' post='2871179']
The issues are highlighted when a decent brand shifts production to the far east (like Eden). Cheap components can ruin a hard earned reputation, especially when the price doesn't change.
[/quote]

Yep, CAN being the operative word though.

[Skybone]

Boutique vs Mass Produced?

The big price difference on most Boutique gear is the labour cost. These things are made in countries which generally have high labour costs, by very skilled workers over a lot of man-hours using quality, and sometimes very specific or "unique" components. Costs add up to make a higher unit cost.

Compare this to a mass produced item, designed by a highly skilled engineer, but then the manufacture is "outsourced" to a country where the labour costs are far lower. Add in mass produced, standardised components, all of which lead to a lower unit cost.

It'll be that there economics again.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1442995011' post='2871167']
With Darkglass and Demeter (the only "boutique" brands I've ever bought), they do use very high quality components. When the Darkglass B3K was being assembled in the US there was a very informative YouTube video that pointed out where particularly good components had been used, notably the footswitch, and how the design favoured durability over speed of assembly with nosockets soldered direct to the PCB for example.

Could these be assembled in the he Far East with the same components? Yes. Would the end result be cheaper? Doubtful, as the volume they are made and sold at would mean that economies of scale wouldn't kick in.
[/quote]Good points although why would sockets being soldered to the PCB make them more unreliable?

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1443034697' post='2871743']
Good points although why would sockets being soldered to the PCB make them more unreliable?
[/quote]

It seems to be quite common that the PCB around board mounted sockets flexes slightly in use and after a few years the tracks fracture and crack. I'm not even any sort of professional repair guy, but I can think of at least three bits of kit I've repaired where this was the fault, so I presume it's a regular point of failure.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1443037789' post='2871785']
It seems to be quite common that the PCB around board mounted sockets flexes slightly in use and after a few years the tracks fracture and crack. I'm not even any sort of professional repair guy, but I can think of at least three bits of kit I've repaired where this was the fault, so I presume it's a regular point of failure.
[/quote]

That happens mostly with poorly designed tube socket mounting schemes or not so robust circuit boards, IHMO. Thermal expansion/contraction of tube socket pins can cause solder joint fractures in some cases as well. Many many pieces of gear work flawlessly for decades with board mounted sockets though.

To address the original topic: diminishing returns have pretty much always been a fact in audio gear. You typically don't get twice as much functional anything for double your money, more like a 5 or ten percent improvement, with improvement down to the beholder to decide of course. Jule is crazy busy fulfilling orders, so perhaps he is a little underpriced if anything.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1443040804' post='2871822']
That happens mostly with poorly designed tube socket mounting schemes or not so robust circuit boards, IHMO. Thermal expansion/contraction of tube socket pins can cause solder joint fractures in some cases as well. Many many pieces of gear work flawlessly for decades with board mounted sockets though.
[/quote]

I was thinking more of jack and power sockets, but those are valid points regarding valve sockets.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1443041063' post='2871824']
I was thinking more of jack and power sockets, but those are valid points regarding valve sockets.
[/quote]

Jacks and pots can definitely be less reliable if great care isn't taken with the board mounting scheme, and small power connectors on EFX units were definitely a very frequent offender back when I was still in the repair business.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1443041893' post='2871833']
Jacks and pots can definitely be less reliable if great care isn't taken with the board mounting scheme, and small power connectors on EFX units were definitely a very frequent offender back when I was still in the repair business.
[/quote]
i've had 2 laptops screwed due to the power socket being attached to the board and over time braking off (yes they could probably be fixed but now old) if the stuff you buy does the job you want then thats all you need, its then up to you how much you are prepared to pay for the stuff, planned obselesnce (spelling) is built in to most things so we go back and get another one

[Chienmortbb]

Of course it is different stroke for different foks and I would love to be in Jule's position of making a living from the thing I love but it seems harsh to criticise anyone for their manufacturing decisions especially when almost everyone (of any size) does it.

I also have to agree with Passinwind that PCB mounted components are not the problem, it is the impementation by some companies that cause the problem. Solder joints are electrical contacts not mechanical joints. So called value engineering often lowers the value of a product over time.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1443037789' post='2871785']
It seems to be quite common that the PCB around board mounted sockets flexes slightly in use and after a few years the tracks fracture and crack. I'm not even any sort of professional repair guy, but I can think of at least three bits of kit I've repaired where this was the fault, so I presume it's a regular point of failure.
[/quote]

I am not a professional repair guy so this is merely opinion, but generally PCB mounted sockets will be attached firmly to a case panel, thus obviating flex (unless it's a very flimsy panel). Where you could get an issue is if the nut holding the socket in place loosens off a bit, and then you'll be putting mechanical stress through the solder joints. So make sure you've always got tight nuts.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1442915214' post='2870407']
Behringer and the like don't do their own R&D. They make tributes to other products instead.
[/quote]

*cough cough* X32 *ahem*

[dincz]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1442915214' post='2870407']
Behringer and the like don't do their own R&D. They make tributes to other products instead.[/quote]

Or so the folklore goes.

[chevy-stu]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1443520392' post='2875402']
Or so the folklore goes.
[/quote][quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1443450066' post='2874771']
*cough cough* X32 *ahem*
[/quote]

R and D in colaboration with Midas, who make their own more expensive version too..

[Bilbo]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442918294' post='2870453']
What a pointless thread.
[/quote]

Yeah - we don't want one of them on Basschat....

[stevie]

No indeed. What we want are more threads from people who have ordered a new piece of equipment. They haven't got it yet, in fact they haven't even heard it before, but they are so excited they have to tell us that they've placed the order. Then, if all goes to plan, they can tell us that the delivery man has knocked on the door. And then do an unpackaging video to entertain and delight us all. All of this accompanied by a bunch of cloth-eared invididuals telling the OP what a wonderful item of equipment it is because they themselves have bought it.

In fact, if everyone who bought a new piece of equipment started a thread like that, what a wonderful place Basschat would be!

[Conan]