Jump to content


Wont get fooled again


27 replies to this topic

#1 Biglump

    Fully fledged member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 67 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wirral

Posted 13 June 2016 - 11:57 AM

This board seems to be out in the desert and I'm obvoiusly asking wrong questions, but...

Can anyone suggests buildng blocks towards 'Wont get fooled again' please.

It's probably my stage in bass playing, but I can't get through the tab, nor realte the sections to the tune.

So are there any songs that contain the building blocks, phrases, etc. that would build up the foundation please?

Many thanks.
(The) Biglump

#2 ras52

    Felly fludged member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,344 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London/Kent

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:01 PM

Search for the isolated bass track on YouTube, that may help...
Basses: too many; Amplification: too loud. My cloud of sound / My back of feed
For sale: Guitar hard case

#3 HazBeen

    Searching for the brown note since 1989

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPip
  • 928 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands and UK

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:06 PM

+1 to the above. It pretty much will help you understand note for note.
Basses:
Bogart Blackstone 5, Bogart Blackstone 4 (x2), Maruszczyk Fretless 4

Amps/Cabs:
Mesa Venture 600, Tecamp L212 (x2) - and others

FX:
Temple Audio, Voodoolab, Providence, TC Electronics, Keeley, COG, MXR, Darkglass, Strymon, Evidence Audio, OneControl, Future Impact, Aguilar etc.

Bass/Vocals for B.O.T. - originals in power trio configuration

My feedback on Basschat: HazBeen

#4 mep

    Keeping it deep down in Devon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,065 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Devon
  • Interests:Bass & Bikes

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:33 PM

The isolated track has recently be discussed

http://basschat.co.u..._1#entry3066429
Basses: Musicman Stingray 4; Musicman Sterling SUB Ray4; Aria Pro II SB-600 Fretless.
Amp: TC Classic 450.
Cab: Barefaced Retro Two 10.
Effects: Boss OC2; Behringer Chorus; Boss Tuner.
My Bands Web Site

My Feedback

#5 chris_b

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,826 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:33 PM

Just play along with the track as many times as it takes.

It will get easier and quicker over time.
Sadowsky~Lull~Lakland~Fender~Aguilar~Thunderfunk~Barefaced~obbm~Wolfcraft


People think I'm getting old! Watch out, I'm just getting started!

#6 JTUK

    Basschat Lifer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,492 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 June 2016 - 07:28 PM

The part is not a very disciplined part .... so pick up a few key sections and riff it to death.

You'll not likely find one version the same as the other anyway so as long as you stay in key, you'll be fine.

Oh.. and as is good practice, IMO.. avoid open strings as much as poss

#7 Cosmo Valdemar

    THE NIMON BE PRAISED

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,265 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dartford, Kent
  • Interests:The Macabre

Posted 14 June 2016 - 12:37 PM

View PostJTUK, on 13 June 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

Oh.. and as is good practice, IMO.. avoid open strings as much as poss

Why is this good practice? Serious question.
Noise makers:

Yamaha Attitude Special / Cataldo JAEbird / Guild Starfire / Yamaha BB424X / Aria SB R60 / Ibanez Blazer / Hofner Icon Violin Bass / Danelectro Longhorn

Tech 21 Leeds / Ashdown Mag 600 / Ashdown MiBass 550 / Custom Ashdown NEO210 x 2

Boss Bass Chorus / Mooer Ninety Orange Phaser / Z.Cat Big Reverb / Joyo Classic Flanger / EHX Bass Soul Food / Ibanez Weeping Demon / EHX Micro POG / Korg Pitchblack

#8 ambient

    Hyper elite mega member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,796 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London/Birmingham.
  • Interests:Art and music, but mainly stuff that dares to push the boundaries of art and music, and tries to be different.

Posted 17 June 2016 - 10:45 PM

I've got a transcription, standard notation though. Is that any use ?

I’m a freelance/solo bassist, multi-instrumentalist/soundscapist, and composer.


Overwater 7 string custom bass, Markbass CMD121P, effects courtesy of Flux:FX, eBow.


My Bandcamp page -https://an-ending-ascend.bandcamp.com/

Soundcloud https://soundcloud.c...n-ending-ascend


I teach bass guitar and music theory, harmony, sight-reading etc in and around Birmingham, and via Skype. Specialising in teaching 5 and 6 and 7 string bass - http://basschat.co.u...55#entry3218155


#9 JTUK

    Basschat Lifer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,492 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 June 2016 - 12:37 PM

View PostCosmo Valdemar, on 14 June 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Why is this good practice? Serious question.

Good practice not to be a slave to playing open strings as that wont transpose very well.
If you play fretted, key shifts are just another position on the neck around the same shape.
For this song, most will play in the original key but if you cover a lot of music then other keys come into play.

You've heard the one about how to shut up a gtr..?? give him a horn key...:lol:
Same would apply to bass..

#10 Cosmo Valdemar

    THE NIMON BE PRAISED

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,265 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dartford, Kent
  • Interests:The Macabre

Posted 22 June 2016 - 10:39 AM

View PostJTUK, on 19 June 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Good practice not to be a slave to playing open strings as that wont transpose very well.
If you play fretted, key shifts are just another position on the neck around the same shape.
For this song, most will play in the original key but if you cover a lot of music then other keys come into play.

You've heard the one about how to shut up a gtr..?? give him a horn key... :lol:
Same would apply to bass..

Fair enough. I've never really thought about it like that.
I've always played WGFA in the original key of A and as per the version above use lots of open strings - there are a few pull offs onto open strings which give the line a certain swagger. I imagine the line would stiffen up if played elsewhere on the neck.
Noise makers:

Yamaha Attitude Special / Cataldo JAEbird / Guild Starfire / Yamaha BB424X / Aria SB R60 / Ibanez Blazer / Hofner Icon Violin Bass / Danelectro Longhorn

Tech 21 Leeds / Ashdown Mag 600 / Ashdown MiBass 550 / Custom Ashdown NEO210 x 2

Boss Bass Chorus / Mooer Ninety Orange Phaser / Z.Cat Big Reverb / Joyo Classic Flanger / EHX Bass Soul Food / Ibanez Weeping Demon / EHX Micro POG / Korg Pitchblack

#11 chris_b

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,826 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 22 June 2016 - 11:12 AM

I play it in A but don't use open strings.

There's no significant reason. I just don't use open strings that often in any number. Never have.
Sadowsky~Lull~Lakland~Fender~Aguilar~Thunderfunk~Barefaced~obbm~Wolfcraft


People think I'm getting old! Watch out, I'm just getting started!

#12 b7l4s

    No longer a newbie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 33 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cambs

Posted 29 June 2016 - 02:21 PM

I feel for the OP - I had to learn this in a hurry after joining my current band, and it is our usual opener... so kind of had to be passable! I recall looking at various attempts to transcribe it and being thoroughly confused...

However, on closer inspection, the chord sequence is actually quite simple, and I did work out the main sections one by one using a combination of tabs, YouTube vids and isolated bass tracks. I’ve since refined my version over the last couple of years and can manage a convincing (enough) version all of my very own that no one has ever complained about – so Biglump, it can be done – and I am in no way making out I'm the reincarnation of the Ox!

FWIW - my thoughts on getting this learned would be…
  • The signature (opening, whatever) bass part that comes up a few times through the song you can completely get away with keeping simple, but once you are comfortable with the whole song there are countless ways to vamp it up with octaves and passing notes – just make sure you are solid with the timing (and the audience sees you make dramatic moves right up and down the neck with all the flair and panache you can muster by playing the octaves on the same string as the root)… It is what John would have wanted!
  • The verses you can base around a very simple riff of your choosing – just keep it moving so it sounds like you are working your butt off. Not too many repeated notes in the phrasing - there are loads of ideas on tab sites and YT. I’ve tried to include one below that is straight out of the top google result for the tab. To this day I often still use this as the 'seed' riff for exploring the verse.
  • The high register descending riff in the chorus is worth getting right. The guys in my band were overjoyed that they could hear that for the first time ever from a bass player (and they had been through a few before finding just the right kind of idiot for their brand of rock).
  • The bridge and solo sections (in my version) are really quite basic - you are potentially doing a lot throughout the rest of the track, so let the guitar have its moment and concentrate on supporting the groove - and don't feel guilty about it. It also makes learning that section quick and easy... embellish it later at your leisure if you want.
  • As mentioned above by JTUK, there is no one right way of doing this unless you are trying to make a carbon copy of the album cut. Of course your timing etc. matters - as with the bass on most any song - but IMO this is one piece better served with the right attitude than with sterile precision. Once you have the basics down you can have fun with this, and I hope you do!

Verse riff:
|G|------2---|---------------|-------2---|-------0-----0/12--|
|D|----------|-0-1-2-0-------|-----------|-0-1-2----0--------|
|A|-0--0---0-|---------3-0---|-0--0----0-|-------------------|
|E|----------|-------------3-|-----------|-------------------|



Obviously everyone will probably pile in now with why this is all wrong – but whatever – advice is free, but your mileage may vary. I hope you get this track down to YOUR satisfaction.

Edit: font for tab...

Edited by b7l4s, 29 June 2016 - 02:27 PM.


#13 Meddle

    Very Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,010 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh - Scotland

Posted 30 June 2016 - 09:17 PM

View PostJTUK, on 13 June 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

Oh.. and as is good practice, IMO.. avoid open strings as much as poss

For Won't Get Fooled Again that perhaps isn't the best advice. Listening to the original Who's Next isolated bass track it is clear that John is using open strings a fair bit. He sometimes uses them for punctuation almost, even when they don't make the best harmonic sense. During the '

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution/

Take a bow for the new revolution

' section, where he does the run down from a high F#, he peppers in open Ds.

I think John basically jammed along to the basic structure of the tune. If you are used to learning things like Mustang Sally then the idea of this sort of endless bass solo is perhaps challenging as it is a totally different way of thinking. John never played it the same way twice, so it is probably better to focus on learning a few John-isms, especially if you are playing this to a crowd. I'm reminded here of a discussion I once read about a bassist that spent ages working out Bill Wyman's part to 'Love You'. The general consensus was that Bill changed up the part almost line by line, and somebody had learned every idiosyncrasy and change by rote. In terms of the feel of both songs this is maybe not the best way to go.

As for open strings I feel this is a bit of a hangover from the classical world. When I took violin lessons I was taught to shy away from open strings as they have a different timbre. I've also read that this attitude is way more prevalent in European (and ex-European) bassists than with those in the US. I suppose it depends on whether you treat the open strings as a crutch or not.

Edited by Meddle, 30 June 2016 - 09:22 PM.


#14 JapanAxe

    My other bass is a Precision.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,940 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Swindon

Posted 02 July 2016 - 11:29 AM

View PostMeddle, on 30 June 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

As for open strings I feel this is a bit of a hangover from the classical world. When I took violin lessons I was taught to shy away from open strings as they have a different timbre. I've also read that this attitude is way more prevalent in European (and ex-European) bassists than with those in the US. I suppose it depends on whether you treat the open strings as a crutch or not.

James Jamerson used open strings to provide descending chromatic approach notes while playing in 'flat' keys. Although it's good not to become dependent upon open strings, that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't use them when they're available.

Edited by JapanAxe, 19 August 2016 - 08:02 PM.

Bass Guitars | Fender Precision (USA 1973) | Fender Precision '63 AVRI (USA 2015) | Fender Precision '57 RI (Japan 2004/5) | Fender Mustang FSR (Japan 2016) | Kala U-bass

Backline | Demeter VTBP-M-800D | Genz Benz Streamliner 900 | Barefaced Compact & Midget (vintage silver) | Markbass Micromark 801

Posted Image FEEDBACK

FOR SALE: Electro-Harmonix Hot Tubes Nano Overdrive | Mooer Trelicopter Tremolo

#15 ras52

    Felly fludged member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,344 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London/Kent

Posted 02 July 2016 - 11:39 AM

View PostJapanAxe, on 02 July 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

James Jamerson used open strings to provide descending chromatic approach nights while playing in 'flat' keys. Although it's good not to become dependent upon open strings, that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't use them when they're available.

I was thinking the same thing! (Although I'd say ascending approach notes, e.g. an open D going up to E flat...) If it's good enough for Jameson...

Also something like She's Lost Control without open strings would be... interesting.
Basses: too many; Amplification: too loud. My cloud of sound / My back of feed
For sale: Guitar hard case

#16 The-Ox

    Fully fledged member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Letchworth/London/Birmingham

Posted 05 July 2016 - 07:57 PM

Interesting! I use open strings a lot, especially in WGFA. Even in normal basslines I use them even where they wouldn't make musical sense, just to fatten up a line.

But I guess whatever you're most comfortable with goes

#17 JTUK

    Basschat Lifer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,492 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 July 2016 - 06:58 PM

View PostThe-Ox, on 05 July 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Interesting! I use open strings a lot, especially in WGFA. Even in normal basslines I use them even where they wouldn't make musical sense, just to fatten up a line.

But I guess whatever you're most comfortable with goes

Apart from the 'New constitution' bit which works with an open D..and the bottom E I don't think you need open strings on this song.
The point about good practice is a general point, but as regards JE he uses open strings so much it defines his style.
When you go to play with other bands who might need to play 'down' a bit open strings becomes a BIG compromise. IMO.

#18 JapanAxe

    My other bass is a Precision.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,940 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Swindon

Posted 19 August 2016 - 08:05 PM

Well would you believe it! I've just been given this to learn for a band I will be working with. Fortunately I have been given a partial transcription, with main riffs in notation, and then 'FILL' for a bar, followed by sim. Basically I need to memorise key sections, and I can improvise beyond that, much as your man did on the original.
Bass Guitars | Fender Precision (USA 1973) | Fender Precision '63 AVRI (USA 2015) | Fender Precision '57 RI (Japan 2004/5) | Fender Mustang FSR (Japan 2016) | Kala U-bass

Backline | Demeter VTBP-M-800D | Genz Benz Streamliner 900 | Barefaced Compact & Midget (vintage silver) | Markbass Micromark 801

Posted Image FEEDBACK

FOR SALE: Electro-Harmonix Hot Tubes Nano Overdrive | Mooer Trelicopter Tremolo

#19 6feet7

    Fully fledged member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 266 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buxted, East Sussex

Posted 20 August 2016 - 01:14 PM

I can't remember which bassist from which metal band said this, but the gist of his playing was to use as many open strings as possible. That way he could stand with one foot on a monitor, left arm in the air pointing at the audience whilst still playing root notes. Has served me well for many years (no good for wgfa though, I'm afraid :)

#20 andytoad

    Serial loiterer & purchaser

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 453 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:kent
  • Interests:Mitsubishi GTO's, bass, beer and bar snacks

Posted 20 August 2016 - 03:41 PM

View Post6feet7, on 20 August 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

I can't remember which bassist from which metal band said this, but the gist of his playing was to use as many open strings as possible. That way he could stand with one foot on a monitor, left arm in the air pointing at the audience whilst still playing root notes. Has served me well for many years (no good for wgfa though, I'm afraid :)

Love it!!
where is my old bass (Avatar)? I want it back!
================
1987 Warwick SS2 NT4
================
Fender Bassman 70 with matching 2x15
Ashdown Superfly
Some dodgy combo
Logitech IEM
Various pedals

#21 spacey

    Everything I say is best taken with a pinch of Salt.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 481 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Leeds
  • Interests:basses, more basses and more bassses

Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:53 AM

Who often tuned the guitar a tone flat when recording, so things like My generation were played in A but came out in G on the record, the guitar riff is an open A with the G added the same chord.
Yet JE, just adapted what he played to suit, as players went he was not bothered what others did, he did his own thing and his way.

#22 Cosmo Valdemar

    THE NIMON BE PRAISED

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,265 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dartford, Kent
  • Interests:The Macabre

Posted 26 August 2016 - 01:09 PM

View Postspacey, on 21 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

Who often tuned the guitar a tone flat when recording, so things like My generation were played in A but came out in G on the record, the guitar riff is an open A with the G added the same chord.

Don't think they did... My Generation was originally recorded in G but played in A live from the late 60s onward, probably for ease. They would sometimes change keys live to make the song easier to play - Sparks from Tommy is another example - the big descending bass riff in the second part was always played in E live, like the opening riff, wheras on record it's in C#. Probably to make Townshend's complex chords a bit easier to pull off after a bottle of brandy.
Noise makers:

Yamaha Attitude Special / Cataldo JAEbird / Guild Starfire / Yamaha BB424X / Aria SB R60 / Ibanez Blazer / Hofner Icon Violin Bass / Danelectro Longhorn

Tech 21 Leeds / Ashdown Mag 600 / Ashdown MiBass 550 / Custom Ashdown NEO210 x 2

Boss Bass Chorus / Mooer Ninety Orange Phaser / Z.Cat Big Reverb / Joyo Classic Flanger / EHX Bass Soul Food / Ibanez Weeping Demon / EHX Micro POG / Korg Pitchblack

#23 JapanAxe

    My other bass is a Precision.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,940 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Swindon

Posted 26 August 2016 - 01:16 PM

To me, Townshend, Moon and Entwistle played as 3 soloists, but somehow the chemistry worked. I had a first run through last night with the band, and the approach of signature riff + ad-lib improv seems to work.
Bass Guitars | Fender Precision (USA 1973) | Fender Precision '63 AVRI (USA 2015) | Fender Precision '57 RI (Japan 2004/5) | Fender Mustang FSR (Japan 2016) | Kala U-bass

Backline | Demeter VTBP-M-800D | Genz Benz Streamliner 900 | Barefaced Compact & Midget (vintage silver) | Markbass Micromark 801

Posted Image FEEDBACK

FOR SALE: Electro-Harmonix Hot Tubes Nano Overdrive | Mooer Trelicopter Tremolo

#24 Biglump

    Fully fledged member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 67 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wirral

Posted 27 August 2016 - 12:31 PM

View Postambient, on 17 June 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

I've got a transcription, standard notation though. Is that any use ?
Oh yes please. I'm trying to learn to read whilst stuck indoors.
And thanks to all the posters for the rest of the ideas too.

#25 ambient

    Hyper elite mega member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,796 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London/Birmingham.
  • Interests:Art and music, but mainly stuff that dares to push the boundaries of art and music, and tries to be different.

Posted 27 August 2016 - 08:23 PM

View PostBiglump, on 27 August 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Oh yes please. I'm trying to learn to read whilst stuck indoors.
And thanks to all the posters for the rest of the ideas too.

Here, hopefully you'll be able to see it OK.

Let me know if you can't, and I'll see if I can scan them and email it to you.

Attached File  monthly_08_2016/post-28991-0-73039700-1472329858.jpg   40.55K

Attached File  monthly_08_2016/post-28991-0-69805000-1472329862.jpg   41.33K


:)

Edited by ambient, 27 August 2016 - 08:31 PM.

I’m a freelance/solo bassist, multi-instrumentalist/soundscapist, and composer.


Overwater 7 string custom bass, Markbass CMD121P, effects courtesy of Flux:FX, eBow.


My Bandcamp page -https://an-ending-ascend.bandcamp.com/

Soundcloud https://soundcloud.c...n-ending-ascend


I teach bass guitar and music theory, harmony, sight-reading etc in and around Birmingham, and via Skype. Specialising in teaching 5 and 6 and 7 string bass - http://basschat.co.u...55#entry3218155


#26 JapanAxe

    My other bass is a Precision.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,940 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Swindon

Posted 18 September 2016 - 12:18 AM

Yoink!
Bass Guitars | Fender Precision (USA 1973) | Fender Precision '63 AVRI (USA 2015) | Fender Precision '57 RI (Japan 2004/5) | Fender Mustang FSR (Japan 2016) | Kala U-bass

Backline | Demeter VTBP-M-800D | Genz Benz Streamliner 900 | Barefaced Compact & Midget (vintage silver) | Markbass Micromark 801

Posted Image FEEDBACK

FOR SALE: Electro-Harmonix Hot Tubes Nano Overdrive | Mooer Trelicopter Tremolo

#27 Kitsto

    No longer a newbie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 04 January 2017 - 04:33 PM

Only just discovered this thread - fantastic to read all these thoughts on how JE did it - I feared I was the only one remotely interested - have watched the YT isolated track over and over and then when you see how little Townshend is actually playing (in the band consolidated shoot) you realise he's jumping around so much it's only JE and mad Moon holding the thing together! WGFA is what got me into rock. I was eleven years old and Who's Next was the first album I ever owned. Just tried b714s's tab riff - wonderful! Thank you. BTW one other bass track I've always been fascinated by is Why Dontcha by West Bruce & Laing - JB's bass lines are fabulously melodic behind LW's brilliant riffing.

#28 Kitsto

    No longer a newbie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 04 January 2017 - 04:44 PM

Why Dontcha: https:/m.youtube.com/watch?gDkgTQhRxpU
Apologies - can't make it link.

Edited by Kitsto, 04 January 2017 - 04:45 PM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users