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Carol Kaye


interpol52
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Hello all

I'm back in a James Jamerson phase and a bit of YouTube activity led me to this

https://youtu.be/q4JWqK6r6N4

I am familiar with Carol Kaye, but not as much as I feel I should given the songs that she has played on.

It's a great watch this video, she is charming, knowledgable and effortlessly talented. I know that she has made a few claims to have played iconic Jamerson lines but I'm not too sure what to make of that business.

Anyway, if you haven't seen it I hope you enjoy.






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Love Carol. She sent me some plectrums a few years ago and if I play with a pick I use those. Not that the magic came with them, sadly!

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1468620121' post='3092269']
The YouTube video of her teaching Gene Simon how to play bass is great.
[/quote]

Simmons.

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  • 2 weeks later...

[quote name='interpol52' timestamp='1468614487' post='3092220']

I know that she has made a few claims to have played iconic Jamerson lines but I'm not too sure what to make of that business.

[/quote]

What I make of it is that James Jamerson is dead & therefore not around to contradict anything she or anyone else says.
And of course you can bet your life that with his history of drtug and alcohol abuse, you would ahve to take a fair bit of what he "remembered" with a pinch of salt.
As far as I am aware Carole didnt start working for Motown until they opened a "branch" in California, which at least gives us a bit of a temporal context....

"Shrouded in mystery" is the phrase that comes to mind.

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[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1469653659' post='3100151']


What I make of it is that James Jamerson is dead & therefore not around to contradict anything she or anyone else says.
And of course you can bet your life that with his history of drtug and alcohol abuse, you would ahve to take a fair bit of what he "remembered" with a pinch of salt.
As far as I am aware Carole didnt start working for Motown until they opened a "branch" in California, which at least gives us a bit of a temporal context....

"Shrouded in mystery" is the phrase that comes to mind.
[/quote]

Wasn't the "hey day" of Motown over when they moved to the West Coast?

Blue

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1469749420' post='3100888']
Wasn't the "hey day" of Motown over when they moved to the West Coast?

Blue
[/quote]

Sorry Blue but didn't you mean "hay"? As in hay days are those that come once a year and you have to make the most of them. Sorry but being of a family that had to gather in the hay by hand I have to pick you up on it. But HEY what do I know. Heeheehee.

I take your point however about Motown. I am prepared to believe it too.

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[quote name='interpol52' timestamp='1468614487' post='3092220']
Anyway, if you haven't seen it I hope you enjoy.
[/quote]

I hadn't and I did so thank you.

I agree, Carol has a lot of musical achievement to her credit. I am only getting to hear about it now even though I've listened to her basslines embedded in a LOT of the music that influenced me in my formative years.

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[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1469653659' post='3100151']


What I make of it is that James Jamerson is dead & therefore not around to contradict anything she or anyone else says.
And of course you can bet your life that with his history of drtug and alcohol abuse, you would ahve to take a fair bit of what he "remembered" with a pinch of salt.
As far as I am aware Carole didnt start working for Motown until they opened a "branch" in California, which at least gives us a bit of a temporal context....

"Shrouded in mystery" is the phrase that comes to mind.
[/quote]

I've no particular insight to this controversy, but Kaye was hugely prolific and already widely acknowledged as a great session player so why would she feel the need to boost an already established and solid reputation by falsely claiming some songs she didn't play on?

There are many possible answers to that of course, either way, so I guess we'll never actually know. Shrouded in mystery is probably right, but mysteries generally require an open mind.

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Jameson was drinking heavily in California and Bob Babbitt says no one really knew whose take had been used even then as the contracts for each track were often wrong - I can't see how forty years would add clarity

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I had the pleasure of interviewing Carol via Skype a couple of years ago for my plectrum technique book. She was a pleasure to talk to and gave me a good couple of hours of her time. In regard to Jamerson's lines that she's claimed, one of these is 'Bernadette', by The Four Tops. I'd previously thought it was Jamerson, but she picked up her bass while we were talking, demonstrated the line and explained how she added in some of the riffs. It sounded like what's on the record to me. I guess it's possible that Jamerson might have been asked to replicate later, but I can't see why. So in the case of that track, I think she's right.

Anyway, a genuine legend. Of all the interviews I've done, that was the most 'honoured' I've ever felt!

Stuart

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[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1469790459' post='3101050']
Jameson was drinking heavily in California and Bob Babbitt says no one really knew whose take had been used even then as the contracts for each track were often wrong - I can't see how forty years would add clarity
[/quote]

From what I've read of it, the stuff that gets everyone's back up is when she claims to have done the lines he recorded in Detroit, not California.

She is a fantastic bass player in her own right and massively deserves her place in history, but I don't buy half of the stuff she was claiming to have done. As much as I have some of Stuart's books and fully respect him, I have to disagree on the above, I have listened to the "isolated bass" version of Bernadette so many times and I'm convinced it is Jamerson, mainly down to the feel, rather than the notes he plays.

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[quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1469793053' post='3101075']
From what I've read of it, the stuff that gets everyone's back up is when she claims to have done the lines he recorded in Detroit, not California.

She is a fantastic bass player in her own right and massively deserves her place in history, but I don't buy half of the stuff she was claiming to have done. As much as I have some of Stuart's books and fully respect him, I have to disagree on the above, I have listened to the "isolated bass" version of Bernadette so many times and I'm convinced it is Jamerson, mainly down to the feel, rather than the notes he plays.
[/quote]

Generally agree.

No one seems to dispute the West Coast recording claims, but up until 1966 [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]'Bernadette' ?[/font][/color]
Did she ever set foot in the Snake Pit, Studio A 'Hitsville' ?
If Jamerson wasn't available that day, wouldn't Babbit have been called in ?
Or did Carol just happen to be in Detroit that day ?

Did I read somewhere that sometimes different versions were maybe released in the UK? More possible confusion.
Also back in the day, session players (real studio players, not function band deps :)) got full rates for playing on demos.
Demo recording was a thriving business. So it is possible she played on certain tracks as she claims,
but another version made the 'final cut' ?

All interesting stuff for sure, and worthy of another thread all these years later. :D

Edited by lowdown
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[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1469779950' post='3100953']
Sorry Blue but didn't you mean "hay"? As in hay days are those that come once a year and you have to make the most of them. Sorry but being of a family that had to gather in the hay by hand I have to pick you up on it. But HEY what do I know. Heeheehee.
[/quote]

A pedant writes: You're both wrong. The word (not words) is "heyday".

[url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/heyday"]http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/heyday[/url]

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CK is one of the great bass players, but how does anyone make sense of her Motown claims?

Of course she recorded for Motown and could easily have recorded versions of the songs in question, but the original versions of these songs she said she played on are so definitely JJ that she's got some wires crossed somewhere.

This article is from Dr Licks, Standing In The Shadows Of Motown author. If this is true (don't know why it wouldn't be) she's got some major fantasies floating around.

[url="http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/kaye/"]http://chnm.gmu.edu/...ses/magic/kaye/[/url]

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[quote name='modelreject' timestamp='1469805184' post='3101224']
An edit of both players according to this, [url="http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?690-The-Funk-Brothers-instrumental-of-the-1970-version-of-quot-Ain-t-No-Mountain-High-Enough-quot"]http://soulfuldetroi...igh-Enough-quot[/url]
[/quote]

Youtube account terminated ?
Not working for me. :(

Seems to be more folks saying that she is not on that edit?

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1469801839' post='3101179']
This article is from Dr Licks, Standing In The Shadows Of Motown author. If this is true (don't know why it wouldn't be) she's got some major fantasies floating around.
[url="http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/kaye/"]http://chnm.gmu.edu/...ses/magic/kaye/[/url]
[/quote]

I have read that article before (ages ago), but it's still an interesting read.

Edited by lowdown
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[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1469796673' post='3101106']
A pedant writes: You're both wrong. The word (not words) is "heyday".

[url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/heyday"]http://www.oxforddic.../english/heyday[/url]
[/quote]

I stand corrected. Sorry Blue.

Thank you for that. Pedantry aside, I am amazed at how easy it is to go through life with a notion that is fixed in my head and then find that I've had it wrong all the time. I've seen this in others too but this time it was me!

Whoops.

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Carol will occasionally put photos of royalty payment, documentation up on her facebook site, as proof of what iconic tracks she's played on in the past.

Such as this.....

[attachment=224532:13118847_991532104257630_2197201859138249044_n.jpg]

Edited by gjones
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And of course it IS worth mentioning that just because you played on a session, invoced and goty paid, doesnt mean you ever made the cut.

I have tried not to let my own feelings on this interfere with the thread, but I am of the opinion that CK is dissing James` legacy just because she thought there was nobody around who would remember/care/argue about it.
As soon as someone shows up with possibly convincing evidence that refutes her claims, all goes quiet again.

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Bob Babbitt specifically stated that the "mock contracts" were often wrong, and often didnt reflect whose take was actually used. He recalled arguing with Jamerson in a bar when a song they'd both recorded a part for came on, about which of them was actually playing the final version. The residuals were based on the contracts and so they are only a guide at best. I'd prefer to go with the actual living memory of people who were physically there (where more than one is saying the same thing as Ck seems a bit inconsistent at best), and it seems a little unfair to lay claim to a whole canon of work when your protagonists are both dead

Since CK is a pick player,and Jamerson and Babbitt both used fingers, it should be fairly easy to tell their styles apart ?

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One of the all time greats, I go along with the theory that she thinks she's on those tracks and it was down to tracks being cut multiple times on different sessions and hope it's nothing more sinister. I personally think it's Jameson on bernadette but she kills it with the pick on the OP YouTube vid
It's such a shame that all this disputed credits stuff seems to dominate our discussion on Carol as she's so talented ,prolific and influential. Her chord tone as opposed to scalar jazz improv approach is so on the money too
If you haven't heard the Mel Torme version of Games people play then you gotta check it out

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Look at the tunes on that short list above..all classics and I bet just a fraction of the pop stuff she played on, let alone the masses of film and tv stuff she did.
She's spoken about a typical day in the studio where after ten hrs you neither cared nor could remember which track you played on. "Charts were placed on the stand and you just played the stuff" I think she said which kinda makes the whole Jamerson thing even more fascinating.
Seems she could be one minute finishing some old TV theme and then at the end of a long session be given a chart for a Detroit pop tune, who knows ...but it sure is fascinating.

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