waldemar Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Hello all, I've recently purchased a couple of 1metre 2-pole Speakon cables, basically these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Speakon-to-Speakon-1-5mm-Van-Damme-Cable-NL2FX-2-Pole-Neutrik-Speakon-connectors-/281296660518?var=580340548555 My current set-up is a 600W Genz Benz Streamliner going into a pair of 8Ω FocusLT cabs (115 and a 210) - these are wired in parallel so that the amp is running at 4Ω What do ya reckon..? Is the 1.5mm gauge of the cable I've bought too thin? Should I have gone for the 2.5mm gauge..? Thanks for all/any advice..! Wal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) Hi Wal! I use 4mm high-capacity Klotz bass speaker cable as supplied by obbm of this parish. Whether it's absolutely necessary or not from a technical viewpoint I don't know, but I believe speaker cable is all about current handling, so it makes sense to my small brain to use the chunkiest cable possible. How are you doing, by the way? Edited July 25, 2016 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 1.5mm is sufficient. If each cab is connected by its own cable to the amp it's considerably more than sufficient. You may go larger, but it won't work any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 My 1.5mm melted in the speakon connector supplied by bass direct at the first gig, 600w genz head into a 4 ohm load,finished the gig with a 20 metre cable from the PA spares box and ordered an OBBM one, never had a problem since, that was around 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Hi Mark, yeah all good thanks. Been very busy this past year, but the dust has settled and I've a bit more time to myself nowadays. I have a vague recollection of you wanting me to have another look at those Hayman trees, sorry for slipping off the radar on that one..! Thanks for the advice re: cables - I thought I'd ask after noticing how prevalent the fat cables seem to be amongst fellow bassists. Thinking about it, if 1.5mm gauge wire used in cables for domestic appliances rated at 13A is good enough, then as Bill says, 1.5mm should be plenty to run a speaker off. Being an electronics dunce, I feel compelled to double check..! Wal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBerriff Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 The formula for power in Watts into a resistive load is: Power = R x I^2. 1.5mm cable is usually described as good for 15 A. Into a 4 Ohm resistive load this gives 4 x 15 x15 = 900 Watts capacity. Into 8 Ohms the capacity is 1800 Watts, which is how you are running it. A speaker is not a simple resistive load, but then again normal bass signals are not pegged at maximum power output. A faulty connection could result in localised overheating I suppose ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stringslow Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 As well as the wire gauge, you need to make sure the conductors are made of oxygen-free, mono-crystalline, unobtainium otherwise your tone will be completely ruined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1469447950' post='3098322'] My 1.5mm melted in the speakon connector supplied by bass direct at the first gig [/quote]I'd blame that on a cheesy connector or a botched connector installation, not the wire gauge. 1.5mm wire can handle 14 amperes at full duty cycle with a resistive load. 600 watts into 4 ohms is 12 amperes. You'd only get that 12 amperes on a sporadic basis, if at all, as a speaker is not a resistive load. Throughout most of the speaker pass band the actual impedance will be far more than 4 ohms, so current will be far less than at 4 ohms. [quote]I thought I'd ask after noticing how prevalent the fat cables seem to be amongst fellow bassists[/quote]Probably trying to compensate for inadequate size elsewhere. Over gauged/overpriced/over hyped cables are the #1 rip off in audio, on both the amateur and professional level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I read somewhere that it's not just about the power handling - thicker speaker cables allow for better damping. Whatever that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I like the fat one's OBBM does. Feels good in my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1469461355' post='3098489'] I read somewhere that it's not just about the power handling - thicker speaker cables allow for better damping. Whatever that is. [/quote]That would be damping factor, and it's not true: http://www.diyspeakers.net/Articles/Richard%20Pierce%20DAMPING%20FACTOR.pdf Damping factor is one of the oft-quoted reasons for the need for exotic/expensive wires. So is skin effect. On the face of it the crap spewed by cable crooks seems to be legitimate, if you have only a cursory understanding of the physics involved. Since few average people posses even cursory knowledge they get away with what's literally criminal. Interesting reading: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2166017-monster-xp-versus-aluminum-foil-speaker-cable-test.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I agree that it was the fake speakons rather than wire size but even with proper quality ones the thin wires dont get a very good connection as the terminals are designed for much bigger cables ime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1469468365' post='3098579'] That would be damping factor, and it's not true: [url="http://www.diyspeakers.net/Articles/Richard%20Pierce%20DAMPING%20FACTOR.pdf"]http://www.diyspeake...NG%20FACTOR.pdf[/url] Damping factor is one of the oft-quoted reasons for the need for exotic/expensive wires. So is skin effect. On the face of it the crap spewed by cable crooks seems to be legitimate, if you have only a cursory understanding of the physics involved. Since few average people posses even cursory knowledge they get away with what's literally criminal. Interesting reading: [url="http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm"]http://www.roger-rus...m/wire/wire.htm[/url] [url="http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2166017-monster-xp-versus-aluminum-foil-speaker-cable-test.html"]http://www.avsforum....cable-test.html[/url] [/quote] Interesting stuff, but the difference in cost between a 1.5mm and a 4mm Speakon cable really isn't huge, should one feel the need. It's certainly not akin to spending $40,000 on hi-fi audio cables, where I believe most of the 'cable crooks' operate. http://most-expensive.com/audio-cables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stringslow Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Those 'most expensive' cables make me laugh - do you think anyone has ever bought them? The optical fibre one is the funniest. Firstly, TOSlink is a digital connection and secondly it runs perfectly well (ie no data errors) over short lengths of the cheapest non-glass optical fibre. I'd love to run a blind listening test with that $33,000 cable against a £5 TOSlink cable. "Hifi" cables are an even better scam than personalised number plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I used to be very cynical about cable size (for 'Hi-Fi'), but changed my very modest system (I mean really sh*tty) from the old 'bell wire' stuff to 2.5mm (No OFC & stuff in those days) and it made a very noticeable difference - Like someone removing a blanket from in front of the speakers - and much cheaper than replacing the 30 year old amp and speakers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Hmm, interesting stuff. I emailed a friend of mine earlier regarding some of this stuff - he's pretty seriously into his hi-fi, not just listening to, but building hi-end valve amps, collecting exotic paired valves etc. - even going as far as temporary structural modifications to his house to get his WE16A horns in... In short, a knowledgeable guy with a keen ear for detail who's not shy of spending a bob or two on his passion. He had this to say: [quote] Ah, damping factor. It starts to get complicated. It depends on the drivers you're using. Some drivers are mechanically well damped and need less electrical damping. Driving them with too low an output impedance and you will actually lose bass as it will roll off early because the driver cannot move freely enough. For example, if using a valve amp, which will have higher output impedance than a solid-state amp, different drivers would be preferred with more mechanical and requiring less electrical damping. However, most modern drivers are designed to be driven by a voltage source (low output impedance) i.e. solid-state amps. Ideally output impedance is 0, giving infinite damping factor. This is not possible in practice and most solid-state amps are fractions of an Ohm. Do bear in mind that many drivers are 8 Ohm or so, which also adds to the source impedance as seen by the speaker, so lowering the damping factor below about 20 (0.4 Ohms into an 8 Ohm speaker) becomes an exercise in diminishing returns. Cables can make a difference here, especially in long runs - cable resistance is added to the amplifier's output impedance, i.e. the speaker driver 'sees' the output impedance of the amp + cable. In this case, adding significant resistance (think wires) could lead to woolly bass, as the driver will not be very well controlled and will flap about more. This can give that loose, uncontrolled, boomy sound. [/quote] Heh. It's a funny old world. Which reminds me - I wonder what my valve-collecting mate would make of this: [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3TtyaJnCmQ&feature=youtu.be&t=8m22s"]https://www.youtube....outu.be&t=8m22s[/url] It's a short film about a local amp tech (Roland Lumby) - well worth a watch in it's entirety. Wal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) [quote name='waldemar' timestamp='1469478128' post='3098701'] Hmm, interesting stuff. I emailed a friend of mine earlier regarding some of this stuff - he's pretty seriously into his hi-fi, not just listening to, but building hi-end valve amps, collecting exotic paired valves etc. - even going as far as temporary structural modifications to his house to get his WE16A horns in... In short, a knowledgeable guy with a keen ear for detail who's not shy of spending a bob or two on his passion. He had this to say: [/quote]He's bought into it. Drank the kool-aid, we'd say here. What he says is true in an absolutely worst case scenario, such as using 200 foot long cables with valve amps, but if you did damping factor would be the least of your worries, as capacitance and inductance would create much more of a problem. It's kind of like skin effect, which as I recall Monster was the first to raise in their advertising. Skin effect is real. Engineers have to go to great lengths to minimize it in cabling for, for instance, radio transmission towers. What Monster, and others who employ it as a boogey-man to generate sales, don't say is that doesn't affect the audio frequency band width. Another cable expose: [url="http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html"]http://www.verber.co.../ce/cables.html[/url] Edited July 25, 2016 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1469479128' post='3098718'] He's bought into it. Drank the kool-aid, we'd say here.[/quote] I can see why you'd say so, I really can - but he's a highly qualified electronic engineer. Hehe, I guess it's a case of 'never the twain' and all that... BTW, love your site Bill - some nice looking (and no doubt sounding) cabs on there. Wal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1469474498' post='3098639'] I used to be very cynical about cable size (for 'Hi-Fi'), but changed my very modest system (I mean really sh*tty) from the old 'bell wire' stuff to 2.5mm (No OFC & stuff in those days) and it made a very noticeable difference - Like someone removing a blanket from in front of the speakers - and much cheaper than replacing the 30 year old amp and speakers! [/quote] It does make a difference if what you started with was complete sh*te but you quickly reach diminishing returns with half decent cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1469479128' post='3098718'] He's bought into it. Drank the kool-aid, we'd say here. [/quote] I'm loving your replies Bill. I had a mate who once went into a hi-fi shop and did a "comparison test" between two 0.1mm thicknesses of speaker cable and claimed he could tell the difference. I reckon that shop had very wide windows - saw him coming a mile off.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 It's like the Monster Speaker Cable vs wire coathanger test all over again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stringslow Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1469523221' post='3098923'] It does make a difference if what you started with was complete sh*te but you quickly reach diminishing returns with half decent cable. [/quote] Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1469447256' post='3098309'] Hi Wal! I use 4mm high-capacity Klotz bass speaker cable as supplied by obbm of this parish. Whether it's absolutely necessary or not from a technical viewpoint I don't know, but I believe speaker cable is all about current handling, so it makes sense to my small brain to use the chunkiest cable possible. How are you doing, by the way? [/quote] I use the same cables supplied by OBMM. They're chunky. Probably more than necessary, but I find that reassuring. The plugs are also very good quality unlike some others I had before. Yours look like proper Neutrik and should be ok if not fake (I could not believe it either, but apparently there are fake Neutrik plugs out there but that seller looks legit) In general, the OBMM one is a very robust cable and I like that. Not very helpful, I know, as you already bought another, but maybe something to bear in mind in the future. However, in the past I had the same gauge you just bought and I had no issues whatsoever and they never felt they were overheating or anything, so I *think* 1.5mm is probably just fine. I'd pay attention to the connector when you're using them, as I think that might sometimes be the weak link. Check it's not overheating the first few times you're using it in anger. If it is, replace the plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 [quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1469458822' post='3098458'] As well as the wire gauge, you need to make sure the conductors are made of oxygen-free, mono-crystalline, unobtainium otherwise your tone will be completely ruined. [/quote] And don't forget to use directional cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1469461505' post='3098491'] I like the fat one's OBBM does. Feels good in my hand. [/quote] I can't believe discreet didn't comment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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