TH500 and lack of punch

[catmanhog]

Hello all...

The whole class D thing is obviously done to death so i will keep it brief!

Been using a TH500 for about a year and at times, it lacks punch - i play mostly old school soul through the TH500,
2 Markbass 2x10's and mostly a jazz bass but at times, it becomes impossible to dial in a sound with punch and it honestly sounds nasal rather than anything else....
Someone suggested a use a pre amp pedal - would this help or hinder or would it be pure sacrilege....?
Or i could just move it on for something with punch that never misses!

Any thoughts welcome.

[JTUK]

Move on IMO.

Nice little amps for the practice room.

[catmanhog]

What would you go with, JT?

[JTUK]

I'd very very likely not go with any class D I've used.
I currently use a Demeter (with class D back-end/power stage, and what makes or rather rescues that is the valve pre amp stage)
For a discerning gig I'd use Aguilar's big block DB amps.

If you have to have class D for convenience...and that is a valid reason, I'd go for something a bit more substantial sounding.

A decent compromise would be Thunderfunk (not Class D) and not heavy at 18lb. IMO.

I think there might be a few other suggestions coming, but I've not used the newest amps apart from the Demeter.
That amp puts out the volume well enough, but there is volume and volume.

Lightweight amps, I have used include LMll/lll, Ampegs, Line, GK's.. and they are all varying degrees of 'ok'... but you have to decide where your bottom line is.

Edited September 11, 2016 by JTUK

[catmanhog]

Thanks for the suggestions, food for thought.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1473617280' post='3131707']
I'd very very likely not go with any class D I've used.
[/quote]

I'd agree with this, and I'd add the relatively light and compact [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/282884-handbox-bass-amplification-new-to-the-uk/"]HandBox R-400 [/url]to JTUK's list of suggestions. It's lesser known, but remarkable (IMO).

[M@23]

I know a couple of guys that use them and have fantastic sounds. I had one and wasn't so successful with it. I really liked it at lower volume but didn't like it when pushed and found the same things as you are. I've got a new amp incoming, which is still class D power with class A pre, still lightweight at 5kg, so will be interested to see how it stacks up.

[warwickhunt]

Unsurprisingly I concur with my fellow BCers and I would also suggest the Thunderfunk (I own one NOT for sale) or Handbox; trialled and gigged one... came close to buying one!

[colleya]

I've just swapped from a TH500 to a walkabout and IMHO there's much more low end presence. It just sounds bigger with the same bass and cabs. I've also had a LM2 and portaflex 500 in the past and couldn't get the same effect. The sound now has a physicality that it didn't before. Weight/portability difference barely registers, still a small amp bag, just a bit heavier.

All completely subjective of course........

[LayDownThaFunk]

Buy a DI/Preamp pedal... this whole 'heft' thing is rubbish. Most these guys change heads every year so what do they know?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1473622916' post='3131784']
Buy a DI/Preamp pedal... this whole 'heft' thing is rubbish. Most these guys change heads every year so what do they know?
[/quote]

I'm imagining it? Cool... thanks for the heads-up!

[JapanAxe]

Hmmm... If I wanted to restore punch I would replace the Jazz with a Precision. You can make a P sound nasal but it's much easier with a J!

[skychaserhigh]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473623646' post='3131790']


I'm imagining it? Cool... thanks for the heads-up!
[/quote]

I must be imagining it too !!

[M@23]

If anything, would the annual changing of amps not reinforce those findings?

Edited September 11, 2016 by M@23

[LayDownThaFunk]

I think it's more of a technique thing personally...

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1473625181' post='3131815']
I think it's more of a technique thing personally...
[/quote]

Tell us more...

[Lozz196]

From my experience of Tonehammers they need a full range, preferably uncolured sounding cab to get the best out of them. Markbass cabs roll off highs a fair bit, so it may be the pairing that is the issue here. Additionally the TH500 is chock-full of mids, so this may also account for the nasal-ness. I found it takes a while to get a good sound from the THs but once you do, well I`ve been pretty happy with them.

I also agree with the adding a preamp pedal - I was encouraged when recording our 2nd album to add in a Sansamp, all settings flat, to beef up the sound, apparently that`s what the producer always does. Wouldn`t be without it now, really adds punch/heft/whatever term it is today (I personally like "chunk").

[catmanhog]

Gotta love BC - some great opinions there and all very useful to me.
I haven't discounted my own shortcomings in all of this and it may be my ears!
All much appreciated so far, thanks guys.

[Basszilla]

Get some valves cooking and you won't look back.

I've had a few class d amps but they either blew up or got sold.

KT120s in the power stage for me. Super duper sound.

[dannybuoy]

If you want old school soul in a Class D head, check out the Orange Terror Bass! And buy a Precision.

Edited September 12, 2016 by dannybuoy

[Lw.]

I don't quite see what benefit can be had by buying an EQ/pre-amp; the TH amp is the exact kind of EQ/pre being suggested, bolted on to a class-d power section - if you can't sculpt the sound to how you want it with that, I'd suggest it's not there to begin with.

What pick-up settings are you using? Jazz's are inherently nasle basses, you can change that a bit by rolling off the bridge pick-up & some of the tone but it still might not get you to where you want to be.

If you really like playing a jazz then I'd move the TH on & look at amps like the handbox, mesa walkabout, orange OB1 type of options (still relatively light & portable compared to a full valve amp but more substantial that the super light-weight options). Alternatively - keep the TH & buy a P-bass.

[largo]

Haven't played a TH500 so can't make comment on that. Have to agree that old-skool amps do the punch thing better, or should I say you've a better chance of success. Both my old Ashdown ABM & Mesa Carbine M6 amps have had this in abundance. Fortunately, just got a Mesa Subway D800 and this has plenty of the same but got lucky on that one I guess.

You have tried turning the bass tone up on the amp? Personally I used to be wary of using too much of the tone control on amps, trying to stick between a 10 'o clock to 2 'o clock range on all the dials. Now, not so much so. I'm happy to roll the bass to 0 or 10 if that's what's needed.

Edited September 12, 2016 by largo

[Dood]

Without wanting to stir the hornets nest, I'd first suggest trying different cabinets. Maybe the TH won't play ball with them because of their own short-comings. Speaking from experience of MarkBass 10's, I'm afraid that I found the 2x10 cabinets lacking in punch and nasal! Really sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear! Exceptional configurations I have tried with the TH500 include the Berg Cn212 that easily held it's own un-miked - a single Hartke 4.5XL and my current favourite and go to cabinet, the Big Twin II.

My only disclaimer is that most amplifiers run out of steam eventually and if you are trying to get your amp to deliver more volume than the cabinets are actually capable of outputting (Sensitivity and SPL), then yes you will lack punch. Get more sensitive cabinets or add more speakers, because a bigger amplifier (say going from 500 watts to 800 watts) will actually only add a few decibels to your overall volume.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1473669897' post='3132024']
My only disclaimer is that most amplifiers run out of steam eventually and if you are trying to get your amp to deliver more volume than the cabinets are actually capable of outputting (Sensitivity and SPL), then yes you will lack punch. Get more sensitive cabinets or add more speakers, because a bigger amplifier (say going from 500 watts to 800 watts) will actually only add a few decibels to your overall volume.
[/quote]

This definitely isn't a dig at you Dood, but it's funny how, in this this world of micro amps, we're used to talking about upgrading from 500w to 800w without batting an eyelid.

This would have been pretty much unheard of when old-school AB amps were the norm, unless you were a touring pro. There was just no need for it.

It makes you wonder what's [i]really[/i] going on under the hood of the Class D's.

*cough* TC *cough*

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1473669897' post='3132024']
Without wanting to stir the hornets nest, I'd first suggest trying different cabinets. Maybe the TH won't play ball with them because of their own short-comings. Speaking from experience of MarkBass 10's, I'm afraid that I found the 2x10 cabinets lacking in punch and nasal! Really sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear! Exceptional configurations I have tried with the TH500 include the Berg Cn212 that easily held it's own un-miked - a single Hartke 4.5XL and my current favourite and go to cabinet, the Big Twin II.

My only disclaimer is that most amplifiers run out of steam eventually and if you are trying to get your amp to deliver more volume than the cabinets are actually capable of outputting (Sensitivity and SPL), then yes you will lack punch. Get more sensitive cabinets or add more speakers, because a bigger amplifier (say going from 500 watts to 800 watts) will actually only add a few decibels to your overall volume.
[/quote]
[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473670848' post='3132033']
This definitely isn't a dig at you Dood, but it's funny how, in this this world of micro amps, we're used to talking about upgrading from 500w to 800w without batting an eyelid.

This would have been pretty much unheard of when old-school AB amps were the norm, unless you were a touring pro. There was just no need for it.

It makes you wonder what's [i]really[/i] going on under the hood of the Class D's.

*cough* TC *cough*
[/quote]

This is getting to the nub of the issue I reckon. I've no doubt that if you took a 3000W class D PA amp through an 8x10 and drove it from a Sansamp then you'd be happy with the 'heft'. I really don't think there is a problem per-se with class D. There seems to me to be a couple of problems 'under the hood' though.

The first is the problem with the power supplies, also switch mode and also lightweight. I think too many of these are probably underpowered and are unable to provide the 500W for more than a few thousandths of a second. Fine for a PA amp where you want undistorted sound but for a bassist regularly driving into distortion it'd feel like the class D amp was running out of steam. Of course there were class A/B amps with underpowered power supplies too. You get what you pay for here as well so it wouldn't be surprising to find expensive lightweight amps have better power supplies and seem punchier.

The second thing is that going lightweight only makes sense if you trade in both speakers and amps. It's pushing it to get enough sound out of a little speaker and you need something fairly exotic to get enough sound out of a 2x10. You are going to get an awful lot more decibels out of an 8x10. With a mid-price 2x10 you simply don't have the headroom to start giving 6dB 0f bass boost for instance so if your preference is for that sort of eq you are going to have problems.

So I think dood is right, it's the speakers that need some thought, or perhaps the speaker/amp combination or even the speaker/amp/bass interaction.