NCD - Barefaced Two10 (update: x2!!!, post 64)

[JTUK]

If a cab chips too easily, then I don't think the Roc covers I've seen would be that much help over any period of time.
You'd need quite a padded cover to protect against bumping into doors etc..which is always easily done with any size cab.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1475833098' post='3149034']
Were yours early production ones? I hope they sorted their glue issues by now! Other makers manage just fine!
[/quote]

Mine are serial numbers 9 and 10, so yes, early runs.

I did take them back to Brighton after about 6 months and one of his team reglued them, but it is peeling again. I am only speaking of this as my experience, it doesn't bother me that much and one day I'll get round to squeezing some more glue on them!

I would also say it's a great shout on the Roqsolid covers - I've had a few accidental bumps into things that have meant my cabs still look pristine (from the front, anyway!)

EDIT: I didn't see JTUK's post above when I typed this - my covers aren't padded, but do enough to stop bumps and scrapes. I also had a drum cymbal stand press into the front while we were unpacking which saved the grille, and saved me killing the drummer.... The cover didn't have a mark on it either.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Huge Hands

[mcnach]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1475837894' post='3149076']
If a cab chips too easily, then I don't think the Roc covers I've seen would be that much help over any period of time.
You'd need quite a padded cover to protect against bumping into doors etc..which is always easily done with any size cab.
[/quote]

The most padded version Roqsolid do is I think 5mm. That's what I had on my Compact and BB2. It's similar to the TKS one, to give you an idea. It'll protect casual gentle bumps but that's it. However, most of us don't have the luxury of employing roadies so that's probably ok during transport. For me the problems with the 'tuffcab' finish came when the cabs were in use actually. Someone bangs a stand against it, or a hard case, and you can get a chip on the finish. Easy to touch up, but not the most durable.

I used to have a TC Electronic RS210 years ago. If you want a pretty looking cab, that is not the best to go for. It acquired marks amazingly fast, and I tried to be careful!

One of the options for the Roqsolid covers include a 'sleeve' where you can add a rigid board for further protection, but I think they only do it on the front, for cloth-grille cabs I suppose.
Still, they're just covers, they will never offer the kind of protection that a hardcase would, which is what you'd use if you relied on other people loading and unloading your van... and they'll negate any kind of advantage that a light/compact rig would offer.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1475839127' post='3149087']
Mine are serial numbers 9 and 10, so yes, early runs.

I did take them back to Brighton after about 6 months and one of his team reglued them, but it is peeling again. I am only speaking of this as my experience, it doesn't bother me that much and one day I'll get round to squeezing some more glue on them!

I would also say it's a great shout on the Roqsolid covers - I've had a few accidental bumps into things that have meant my cabs still look pristine (from the front, anyway!)

EDIT: I didn't see JTUK's post above when I typed this - my covers aren't padded, but do enough to stop bumps and scrapes. I also had a drum cymbal stand press into the front while we were unpacking which saved the grille, and saved me killing the drummer.... The cover didn't have a mark on it either.
[/quote]


While I agree that reglueing is not a complicated procedure... it just seems that it should not be necessary. People have been building cabs covered with various finishes, glued, without problems. For decades. So that would/will bother me if/when it happens. It's something I'll put up with without fuss if I'm happy with the cab in action (compact, light, powerful, good sound, not necessarily in that order ) but I really hope they've sorted it out by now. I am under the impression that it was just an initial mishap with their glue choice/procedure. We'll see!

I always go for padded covers. You can still fold them relatively easily when you want them out of the way if you take care of where you put the creases, and they give me a little extra confidence. Although it may be little more than psychological, as that amount of foam is not going to stop any serious impact. So far so good, 'though. I'm the one who loads/unloads/sets up... and that's not likely to change anytime soon.
What I did for this last one was order it with the underneath flat too. It doesn't cover the whole of the bottom but a large part of it, and that will be handy when using a trolley. It'll be easy to add an extra bit of material (I actually have a small bathroom mat in the car boot for that purpose) held in place by the bottom flap, to ensure the trolley doesn't mark the bottom... the bottom is actually the side when used vertically.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1475841175' post='3149119']
It's something I'll put up with without fuss if I'm happy with the cab in action (compact, light, powerful, good sound, not necessarily in that order )
[/quote]

This was my line of thinking. They did give me a spare pot of glue when they re-did them, but as it didn't work then, it probably won't work now. I think I'll look into something stronger.

I did consider the various Roqsolid extra options, but I was running out of cash due to the cost of the two cabs, so went for the basic one. They have been fine for me. The bottoms are a little scuffed from my trolley, but nothing too bad.

[GregBass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1475831633' post='3149011']
Isn't that exactly what the good bass players do?
[/quote]

Unless, like me, they play in a pub covers band with a 400W PA that has no subs. Surely I am not the only one on here in a band like that? Am I?

[mep]

I hope you will be happy with your cover. I went for the padded one with the placeholder strap. The price does start adding up but I left it at that for the extras.

[discreet]

I got a Roqsolid for my Two10 - a 5mm foam padded with a placeholder strap. It was a return in great nick and I got it for £23. Just to be annoying.

[mcnach]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1475843517' post='3149158']
I got a Roqsolid for my Two10 - a 5mm foam padded with a placeholder strap. It was a return in great nick and I got it for £23. Just to be annoying.
[/quote]

I hate you even more now. I hope you break the G string on the RW Precision

[Beer of the Bass]

Hey, if the tolex ever does peel, you could view it as an excuse to have it re-covered in red! But I'd hope it's something they've got sorted out by now. I wonder if they're using the water-based type of tolex glue which would be kinder on their staff and easier in terms of H&S paperwork than the old style solvent based stuff, but seems a bit more finicky in use.
I find it interesting that they've gone for ceramic drivers with these, and it sounds like they capture a lot of what you like about the sound of ceramic drivered TKS cabs. I was sceptical about the ceramic vs. neo threads for a long time, but maybe there's something in the idea that certain ceramic drivers have some sort of characteristic colouration to them.

[JTUK]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1475840502' post='3149105']

The most padded version Roqsolid do is I think 5mm. That's what I had on my Compact and BB2. It's similar to the TKS one, to give you an idea. It'll protect casual gentle bumps but that's it. However, most of us don't have the luxury of employing roadies so that's probably ok during transport. For me the problems with the 'tuffcab' finish came when the cabs were in use actually. Someone bangs a stand against it, or a hard case, and you can get a chip on the finish. Easy to touch up, but not the most durable.

I used to have a TC Electronic RS210 years ago. If you want a pretty looking cab, that is not the best to go for. It acquired marks amazingly fast, and I tried to be careful!

One of the options for the Roqsolid covers include a 'sleeve' where you can add a rigid board for further protection, but I think they only do it on the front, for cloth-grille cabs I suppose.
Still, they're just covers, they will never offer the kind of protection that a hardcase would, which is what you'd use if you relied on other people loading and unloading your van... and they'll negate any kind of advantage that a light/compact rig would offer.
[/quote]

All my cabs have padded covers and they do ok with a defecting bump. More than that and I'd be wary especially against the lighter cabs whose material is less solid and I'd include TKS in that. I like their covers and the cabs look very very good after wearing them for nigh on 2 years but their default cover is the least I'[d go to, tbh.
The more solid ( heavier) cabs are less of a problem but even so, the 5mm type padding is required. IMO.

For that reason, the lighter Roq cover is little more than a rain cover and would protect against scuffs getting it in and out of the car but not much more.

That has been my experience with them... but better than no cover at all.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1475843974' post='3149164']Hey, if the tolex ever does peel, you could view it as an excuse to have it re-covered in red! But I'd hope it's something they've got sorted out by now. I wonder if they're using the water-based type of tolex glue which would be kinder on their staff and easier in terms of H&S paperwork than the old style solvent based stuff, but seems a bit more finicky in use.[/quote]

The first few Six10 and Two10 cabs and maybe a couple of the One10s used solvent-based spray contact adhesive. We used two different adhesives, going to an even more hardcore and even more expensive version after some customers had issues with tolex peeling. That didn't solve it either.

Every tolexed Barefaced cab made since summer 2015 has used a water-based adhesive which has proven far better at staying stuck (we haven't heard of any cabs peeling since then) and is nicer to work with.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1475845836' post='3149184']
The first few Six10 and Two10 cabs and maybe a couple of the One10s used solvent-based spray contact adhesive. We used two different adhesives, going to an even more hardcore and even more expensive version after some customers had issues with tolex peeling. That didn't solve it either.

Every tolexed Barefaced cab made since summer 2015 has used a water-based adhesive which has proven far better at staying stuck (we haven't heard of any cabs peeling since then) and is nicer to work with.
[/quote]

Hi Alex,

I got the impression that your guys were using the new glue when I brought them down for the day around August/September last year, but mine have peeled in exactly the same place by the same amount. Perhaps new glue on top of old glue does not give the same result?

[mcnach]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1475843974' post='3149164']
Hey, if the tolex ever does peel, you could view it as an excuse to have it re-covered in red!
[/quote]

I always had you as an intelligent person, and it seems I was right all along

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1475843974' post='3149164']
But I'd hope it's something they've got sorted out by now. I wonder if they're using the water-based type of tolex glue which would be kinder on their staff and easier in terms of H&S paperwork than the old style solvent based stuff, but seems a bit more finicky in use.
I find it interesting that they've gone for ceramic drivers with these, and it sounds like they capture a lot of what you like about the sound of ceramic drivered TKS cabs. I was sceptical about the ceramic vs. neo threads for a long time, but maybe there's something in the idea that certain ceramic drivers have some sort of characteristic colouration to them.
[/quote]

Re: glue... possibly.
In many areas we're getting more 'human-friendly' replacement materials and they're often not performing as well as the classic ones.

I had the same thought although I don't know if it's a ceramic vs neo issue. I can't say I have enough experience with cabs to draw that conclusion. BF seems to be aiming for a different type of sound with their Retro series based on that ceramic 10" driver... and I don't know how much of the sound is due to the magnet material. There are a lot of ceramic equipped cabs that I don't care for too. But it is possible that there's something in there... It certainly has got my attention now.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1475846371' post='3149190']Perhaps new glue on top of old glue does not give the same result?[/quote]

Unfortunately that appears to be the case. We can rewrap them for you but we'll need long enough to strip, sand and cover again.

[chris_b]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1475846555' post='3149191']
In many areas we're getting more 'human-friendly' replacement materials and they're often not performing as well as the classic ones.
[/quote]
+1

I can't buy creosote or proper varnish any more.

The water based products we get these days are not as good as the old "nasty" stuff.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1475843974' post='3149164']I was sceptical about the ceramic vs. neo threads for a long time, but maybe there's something in the idea that certain ceramic drivers have some sort of characteristic colouration to them.[/quote]

It's easier to make a high accuracy speaker using neo or alnico magnets than with ceramic magnets - the big difference is that the former are conductive metal alloys whilst the latter is a non-conductive sintered composite.

I'd say that over 95% of the difference in tone between our 12XN and 10CR drivers is due to other things than magnet material.

[mcnach]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1475845836' post='3149184']
Every tolexed Barefaced cab made since summer 2015 has used a water-based adhesive which has proven far better at staying stuck (we haven't heard of any cabs peeling since then) and is nicer to work with.
[/quote]


Fingers crossed!

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1475847088' post='3149200']
It's easier to make a high accuracy speaker using neo or alnico magnets than with ceramic magnets - the big difference is that the former are conductive metal alloys whilst the latter is a non-conductive sintered composite.

I'd say that over 95% of the difference in tone between our 12XN and 10CR drivers is due to other things than magnet material.
[/quote]

I was trying to be a bit careful with how I worded things (saying certain ceramic drivers rather than ceramic drivers in general) as I don't know how much is down to the magnet material rather than the whole design approach of the driver. I'm just curious as to whether some of the distortions that those high accuracy modern drivers (many of which use neodymium magnets) might be designed to avoid are a part of what many bassists seem to like about less accurate drivers (many of which use ceramic magnets). So if bassists looking for a certain sound tend to find it in ceramic-driver cabs it might be as much correlation as causation, but still seems to occur.

[molan]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1475841175' post='3149119']
While I agree that reglueing is not a complicated procedure... it just seems that it should not be necessary. People have been building cabs covered with various finishes, glued, without problems. For decades. So that would/will bother me if/when it happens. It's something I'll put up with without fuss if I'm happy with the cab in action (compact, light, powerful, good sound, not necessarily in that order ) but I really hope they've sorted it out by now. I am under the impression that it was just an initial mishap with their glue choice/procedure. We'll see!


[/quote]

If it helps then it's always worth noting that build defects are covered by UK consumer laws for 6 years. If something isn't staying as it should within this period then you can ask the manufacturer to make good. You have to be the original owner though.

Something as basic as making sure a covering stays glued in place during normal use ought to be covered without any issues

[mcnach]

Finally I got to use it in a live situation last night. It was only as onstage monitor at the smaller O2 ABC in Glasgow. MarkBass LMIII, Stingray and the Two10 vertical.

The onstage sound was not fantastic... but I had no problem hearing and feeling the bass. This thing can get pretty loud, it really doesn't compare to the other 210s I experienced before. I turned the bass control on the amp down a bit. The stage sound was clearer that way, and this cab is not short in lows.

I'm keeping it.

I can't say whether I like it better or worse than the TKS S112s, but this cab is definitely a cool one. I had a bit of space to move about too, which I did, and it was nice to hear the bass clearly... and it had a bit of 'thump' that made it feel it was a lot bigger than it was. It was an enjoyable experience.
Someone was estimating this could be as loud as a pair of S112... that sounds about right from my experiences so far. A bit deeper too, but the lows are tight, which is great. The midrange may not be quite as sweet as the S112 but the semiparametric mids on my Stingray got me where I wanted...

Promising!

And I can fit two in my boot, for sure.

[mcnach]

After a short holiday I returned to this cold island to play a couple of gigs... and one has been cancelled
But I played the one last night and I am really really liking this Two10. It's got the "oompf" that the TKS S112 don't have with just a bit more weight/size. The midrange is not instantly as sweet as the TKS, but all it means is using the amp controls a little. A little. It sounds great with the LM3 and the Streamliner 900 is not bad at all either, when it was hard to make it sound good with the Compact and the BB2...

I'm definitely keeping this. I'm not letting go the blue beautiful TKS S112... but I see a second Two10 in my life and that would be my rig #1, I think.
Well done Barefaced!

[mep]

Glad you are enjoying it. I found it gets very boomy if the bass eq is a bit too high. I do have to adjust this on my amp to suit the room. Get it right and no problems.

[machinehead]

I have a one10 and love it, but reading this has tempted me to think about either another one10 or a two10. I suppose another one10 would make more sense and would be cheaper too. Mmmmmmm.

Frank.

[Fisheth]

I love Barefaced stuff, I have a Super Compact and love it, but I've been tempted by a 210 a few times, just a shame it's not wider so I can have it upright with my Ashdown on top. Suppose it wouldn't hurt with it set up the same way I've got my Super Compact on it's side.

I suppose another SC would be easier so I could stack them both

Edit: I still need to come and see you guys. I'm keeping an eye on your dates now ever since I missed you in Morpeth!

Edited October 29, 2016 by Fisheth