hen barn Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 That's the bass synth sound I have always wanted but never really got near it?????? Any suggestions?????! Some one needs to make this pedal as I'm fed up with fart sounding synth pedals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 'fraid you're going to need one of these... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen barn Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 I want a pedal!!!! Some must want to make one??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Forum studies have shown that providing the song title increase your chances by 36% Providing a link to the song? 57% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) Having spent a lot of my time since the early 80s trying to make basses (and guitars) sound like synths and synths sound like guitars or basses, I've finally learnt that the easiest way is to use the right instrument in the first place. If you need a synth sound buy a (keyboard) synth. I found it easier and quicker to teach myself enough rudimentary keyboard technique to be able to play what I wanted, instead of trying to find the right pedal (or combination of pedals) or invest in a guitar to synth system, and then spend even more time learning how to modify my playing technique to make it work properly. Edited October 14, 2016 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 [quote name='hen barn' timestamp='1476425329' post='3154105'] I want a pedal!!!! Some must want to make one??? [/quote] Nup - and they won't track like they need to either. This, Chaka's "We can work it out" and Whitney's "I wanna dance with somebody" synth tones... if only there was a pedal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen barn Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 We all need to speak to one of the big company's!! If we can make a car park itself we must be able to make a bass guitar sound like a bass synth with out the fart noises!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen barn Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 https://youtu.be/UqyT8IEBkvY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 [quote name='hen barn' timestamp='1476441924' post='3154322'] We all need to speak to one of the big company's!! If we can make a car park itself we must be able to make a bass guitar sound like a bass synth with out the fart noises!! [/quote] Its mainly down to a bass being crap as a trigger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476442968' post='3154340'] Its mainly down to a bass being crap as a trigger... [/quote] If you want to do pitch detection (to enable you to use other wave forms and therefore open up all the synthesis possibilities and not just filter and amplitude modulation) then for all pedals and most "guitar controller" systems the laws or physics are simply against you. In order for them to detect the pitch of the note being played they need a minimum of 1½ cycles of the waveform. And this is for the very best pitch detection systems - most of them will require a few more cycles to accurately detect the pitch of a plucked string. 1½ cycles of the waveform for the open E string on a bass guitar is 36 milliseconds. That's well into slap-back delay territory! At around the open G string you stop getting noticeable latency between plucking the string and hearing the synthesised sound. Of course that's before we consider instabilities in the detection system due to the playing technique not being completely clean and the accuracy dropping of as the note dies away. Tony James of Sigue-Sigue Sputnik who has been using synth bass from pitch detection pretty much longer than anyone uses a guitar controller (where the latency is half of what it would be on a bass due to the strings being an octave higher) but still has to play slightly ahead of the beat in order for his synth notes to be in the right place rhythmically. If you really want to play synth type sounds from your bass you do have a couple of more useable options. 1. You could daisy chain a load of pedals together, with something like a distortion feeding into a filter and envelope shaper. However your source tones are limited compared with a real synthesiser and you are also restricted by the note length and to a large extent by the envelope of the original bass guitar signal. Also setting up a new sound is nowhere near as quick and easy is pressing the button on any programmable synth. 2. Look for a system that doesn't require pitch detection to produce note information for driving a synthesiser. There are plenty of "game controller" type devices that will produce MIDI output from something that looks a bit like a guitar. 3. If you really need to use a "normal" bass guitar then your only option is the [url=http://www.industrialradio.com.au]Industrial Radio[url] system. This uses sensors in the frets to detect the pitch of the notes and therefore does away with most of the latency of the pitch to MIDI systems. You are also able to use it as an ordinary bass too. I've played the previous version of this technology that was licensed to Peavey, and it is by far the best of all the guitar type systems that I have used, although you still need to clean up your playing technique to get the best out of it. In the end I found it was easier to just learn how to play a bit of keyboard. I got the results I wanted far quicker and far more accurately and consistently than any bass to synthesiser system, plus I could buy whatever keyboard I needed to get the sounds I was after. If some with very little technical ability like me can do it, then anyone can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen barn Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Wow thanks for that reply, but I still just want a pedal that make a donk sound. As I never want to stand behind a keyboard!! I'm a bass player!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 [quote name='hen barn' timestamp='1476449898' post='3154427'] Wow thanks for that reply, but I still just want a pedal that make a donk sound. As I never want to stand behind a keyboard!! I'm a bass player!! [/quote] This one sounds quite donk-ey: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 [quote name='hen barn' timestamp='1476449898' post='3154427'] Wow thanks for that reply, but I still just want a pedal that make a donk sound. As I never want to stand behind a keyboard!! I'm a bass player!! [/quote] Well good luck with that. Let me know how you intend to do all those pitch bends including the octave ones and how you are going to get your bass to sustain at full attack amplitude for at least a whole bar. The good news is that pretty much any analogue-style synth will do that sound plus all the performance tricks with ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1476448451' post='3154405'] If you want to do pitch detection (to enable you to use other wave forms and therefore open up all the synthesis possibilities and not just filter and amplitude modulation) then for all pedals and most "guitar controller" systems the laws or physics are simply against you. In order for them to detect the pitch of the note being played they need a minimum of 1½ cycles of the waveform. And this is for the very best pitch detection systems - most of them will require a few more cycles to accurately detect the pitch of a plucked string. 1½ cycles of the waveform for the open E string on a bass guitar is 36 milliseconds. That's well into slap-back delay territory! At around the open G string you stop getting noticeable latency between plucking the string and hearing the synthesised sound. Of course that's before we consider instabilities in the detection system due to the playing technique not being completely clean and the accuracy dropping of as the note dies away. Tony James of Sigue-Sigue Sputnik who has been using synth bass from pitch detection pretty much longer than anyone uses a guitar controller (where the latency is half of what it would be on a bass due to the strings being an octave higher) but still has to play slightly ahead of the beat in order for his synth notes to be in the right place rhythmically. If you really want to play synth type sounds from your bass you do have a couple of more useable options. 1. You could daisy chain a load of pedals together, with something like a distortion feeding into a filter and envelope shaper. However your source tones are limited compared with a real synthesiser and you are also restricted by the note length and to a large extent by the envelope of the original bass guitar signal. Also setting up a new sound is nowhere near as quick and easy is pressing the button on any programmable synth. 2. Look for a system that doesn't require pitch detection to produce note information for driving a synthesiser. There are plenty of "game controller" type devices that will produce MIDI output from something that looks a bit like a guitar. 3. If you really need to use a "normal" bass guitar then your only option is the [url=http://www.industrialradio.com.au]Industrial Radio[url] system. This uses sensors in the frets to detect the pitch of the notes and therefore does away with most of the latency of the pitch to MIDI systems. You are also able to use it as an ordinary bass too. I've played the previous version of this technology that was licensed to Peavey, and it is by far the best of all the guitar type systems that I have used, although you still need to clean up your playing technique to get the best out of it. In the end I found it was easier to just learn how to play a bit of keyboard. I got the results I wanted far quicker and far more accurately and consistently than any bass to synthesiser system, plus I could buy whatever keyboard I needed to get the sounds I was after. If some with very little technical ability like me can do it, then anyone can. [/quote] Or a Roland VB99 - no latency, no pitch conversion. With patience and skill you can cook up anything on that thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 [quote name='ped' timestamp='1476453566' post='3154479'] Or a Roland VB99 - no latency, no pitch conversion. With patience and skill you can cook up anything on that thing. [/quote] AFAICS the VB99 system is essentially signal processing the audio signal from your instrument on a string-by-string basis. Can it do anything to massively alter the amplitude envelope of outgoing sound compared with the source signal? and can you get it to sustain for longer than the original note? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1476453997' post='3154489'] AFAICS the VB99 system is essentially signal processing the audio signal from your instrument on a string-by-string basis. Can it do anything to massively alter the amplitude envelope of outgoing sound compared with the source signal? and can you get it to sustain for longer than the original note? [/quote] Not sure what "alter the amplitude envelope of outgoing sound" means but you can hold notes and play over them if you like. I reckon I could get close to the sound in the vid... I'll have to spend a day or so trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Yeah pedals aren't going to do it really, definitely key bass I work for Novation, and the Bass Station 2 gets there easily, Darrell Freeman killing it here: https://www.instagram.com/p/BLjIOd0BXeH/?taken-by=darrell_freeman Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 [quote name='ped' timestamp='1476558955' post='3155253'] Not sure what "alter the amplitude envelope of outgoing sound" means but you can hold notes and play over them if you like. I reckon I could get close to the sound in the vid... I'll have to spend a day or so trying. [/quote] Hopefully this will make what I was asking a bit clearer: A bass guitar note has a very distinct amplitude envelope - fast attack, and then a slowish decay during the sustain portion of the envelope until it has decayed to an audible level, you play another note on the same string, or you stop the note with your hands. There is very little you can do to alter this decay/sustain portion of the envelope. A compressor will help to boost the volume so that the decay portion happens later and more slowly, but even that cannot make the note sound beyond the point at which the string vibration has decayed to nothing. On a synth a note will sustain forever so long as you hold down the key and the volume will remain constant at whatever value the sustain level is set. Also the release portion of the envelope will allow the note to continue sounding after you have stopped holding down the key. So to what extent can the VB99 over-ride the amplitude envelope of the incoming bass signal? Can it make the note sustain at full volume for as long as there is still string vibration to be detected? I could probably nail the sound in that song in under 5 minutes given any decent analogue synth with a full set of parameter controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1476648381' post='3156008'] Hopefully this will make what I was asking a bit clearer: A bass guitar note has a very distinct amplitude envelope - fast attack, and then a slowish decay during the sustain portion of the envelope until it has decayed to an audible level, you play another note on the same string, or you stop the note with your hands. There is very little you can do to alter this decay/sustain portion of the envelope. A compressor will help to boost the volume so that the decay portion happens later and more slowly, but even that cannot make the note sound beyond the point at which the string vibration has decayed to nothing. On a synth a note will sustain forever so long as you hold down the key and the volume will remain constant at whatever value the sustain level is set. Also the release portion of the envelope will allow the note to continue sounding after you have stopped holding down the key. So to what extent can the VB99 over-ride the amplitude envelope of the incoming bass signal? Can it make the note sustain at full volume for as long as there is still string vibration to be detected? I could probably nail the sound in that song in under 5 minutes given any decent analogue synth with a full set of parameter controls. [/quote] Ah ok that makes sense. Yes I can play a note and either hold it indefinitely by holding an assigned pedal or by waving past the d-beam controller. OR I can set the note to remain as a consistent volume until the string vibration isn't recognised at which point it starts to break up. But yes a keyboard would be easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonbass Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) Or just do it with a bass: http://youtu.be/1XmcX9x4OqY Still pretty great! Edited October 20, 2016 by moonbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 [quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1476652113' post='3156076'] Or just do it with a bass: https://youtu.be/1XmcX9x4OqY Still pretty great! [/quote] Great shout, always a killer player, and great Jazz tone! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 [quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1476652113' post='3156076'] Or just do it with a bass: [url="https://youtu.be/1XmcX9x4OqY"]https://youtu.be/1XmcX9x4OqY[/url] Still pretty great! [/quote] Absolutely no need for synth when you can play it like that. Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 [quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1476652113' post='3156076'] Or just do it with a bass: [url="https://youtu.be/1XmcX9x4OqY"]https://youtu.be/1XmcX9x4OqY[/url] Still pretty great! [/quote] And 'only' 4 strings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 (edited) But while we're on the subject, what budget synth could do the Michael Jackson, Chaka Khan and Mr. Mars' bass sounds? Around a couple of ton, so no Minitaur type suggestions! The Bass Station sounds wicked in Si's link! Edited October 17, 2016 by Bigwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westenra Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1476665134' post='3156162'] Great shout, always a killer player, and great Jazz tone! Si [/quote] Who is the player? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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