Maybe a stupid IEM question, but...

[pete.young]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1484907049' post='3219523']
ACS Live systen on the cheap!

What you have is half way towards a full inear mix with ambient sounds mixed in. Now you have the ambient mix sorted, you'll be hankering to get the rest of it down.
[/quote]
I have a Zoom h4, which might do all of this: stereo mikes for ambient, desk feed into one line channel, bass into the other line input, in 4 channel mode make up a nice mix and iems in the headphone socket. Would this work?

[Dood]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1484990824' post='3220173']

I have a Zoom h4, which might do all of this: stereo mikes for ambient, desk feed into one line channel, bass into the other line input, in 4 channel mode make up a nice mix and iems in the headphone socket. Would this work?
[/quote]

Yup! I was thinking that my Q8 would do exactly the same too! I just didn't want to take a full camera with me all the time! let us know if you try it!

[mcnach]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1484990824' post='3220173']
I have a Zoom h4, which might do all of this: stereo mikes for ambient, desk feed into one line channel, bass into the other line input, in 4 channel mode make up a nice mix and iems in the headphone socket. Would this work?
[/quote]

I'm now thinking of trying that myself!

Using this:




using the Zoom H2 for ambient sound, and the OmniCabSim for bass sound, mixed with that little but pretty versatile mixer.

I was checking the H2 the other day in my office (I had the bass at work, and the H2 lives in the gig bag)... It was very interesting to set the gain switch to "High"... I could hear when people were opening doors down the corridor because the whirring noise of the equipment fans in the room... and I could hear conversations quite clearly next door that normally you could not make out... Obviously I'd want the gain set 'LOW' during a gig, as I do for recordings during rehearsal, but that was pretty cool. They're decent little microphones, those in the Zoom units, eh?

[EBS_freak]

It's all getting a bit MacGyver in these parts! :-p

[mcnach]

[Dood]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1485010512' post='3220385']
It's all getting a bit MacGyver in these parts! :-p
[/quote]

Love it!

[mcnach]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1485005988' post='3220324']

I'm now thinking of trying that myself!

Using this:




using the Zoom H2 for ambient sound, and the OmniCabSim for bass sound, mixed with that little but pretty versatile mixer.

I was checking the H2 the other day in my office (I had the bass at work, and the H2 lives in the gig bag)... It was very interesting to set the gain switch to "High"... I could hear when people were opening doors down the corridor because the whirring noise of the equipment fans in the room... and I could hear conversations quite clearly next door that normally you could not make out... Obviously I'd want the gain set 'LOW' during a gig, as I do for recordings during rehearsal, but that was pretty cool. They're decent little microphones, those in the Zoom units, eh?
[/quote]


Some more MacGyver

I had a terrible gig on Saturday where the onstage sound was maddening. I have played there before and it's not the best stage around these parts, but on Saturday I don't know what happened, it was terrible. So I'm going to take this IEM situation a bit more attention. Unfortunately finances are tight, so I am looking for something that works, to start with, even if the sound is not the best, as long as it's going to allow me to protect my ears from stupid volumes, to allow me to hear band and myself better, and it's relatively simple.

So I am thinking of three options.

1) wired, ambient mic
a stereo mic (on stage somewhere, probably) such as the Zoom H2 above, the OmniCabSim pedal for my bass sound, blended with a small mixer (probably not the one above, but a small Behringer one I have that I'm not using which has a couple of XLR inputs and various 6.3mm jack sockets etc. Th output of that would be fed into a Behringer P1 portable headphone amp I ordered yesterday.
This is the simplest, and when the P1 arrives (and a couple of cables I ordered with it) I'll be ready to have a go.
One possible limitation is that what the mic captures may not be very helpful... but I'll have to try and see.
I could mount everything into my old pedalboard case, and it should be pretty quick to set up. I'd also be independent of soundguys, which is attractive as probably a third of the gigs I play we have very limited support, and it can work even for those gigs where it's just backline, which we do a few of sometimes (small PA purely for vocals/brass).
I'll have to figure out a way to maybe wrap my instrument cable and the cable carrying the signal from my mixer together so that I don't have multiple cords dangling about. Or go back to using my wireless for the bass, so the only cable is the one feeding my headphone amp.
Any ideas from somebody who's done this?

2) wired, desk output
A variation of the above, or perhaps even better an addition to that, would be if I can get an output mix from the desk. If I can get my own mix, wonderful, but I'm thinking worse case scenario: there's always a wedge monitor I could perhaps 'tap' from. I could choose the monitor that has the mix I might like best (maybe drummer, as he's close to me and he does like his kick through the monitor, which I'd find very useful... whatever).
My question is: would this be as simple as maybe making a box that splits the XLR from the desk into two, one that plugs into the wedge and another with a longer cable that I'll plug into my mixer? It'll be a mono signal, but if this approach is ok, I could probably do the same with a second wedge carrying a different mix and use that to give me some 'fake stereo' image that may sound more pleasant? Or is this completely silly?
I got this idea from the UE Sound Tap gadget... but as it doesn't allow to add/mix another signal to it, maybe I can make my own this way?

3) wireless, desk output
Right... now we enter the more dangerous and expensive territory. While I can potentially invest in decent gear in the future, after finances recover and I have done more research... if I were going to try something soon, it would have to be something affordable. The simplest would be a situation where I don't need the sound person to give me my own mix, but I can just use a generic stereo mix and add my bass to it myself.
Here I run into two issues. First... how do I add my own bass to it? If the transmitter (set by the desk) sends me a mix, it will go to the receiver. But how could I add my bass signal to it and stay wireless? I could just pick the signal and feed it into my Behringer mixer... and use the P1 headphone amp instead of the receiver from the IEM system.. but then I'd be wired between my mixer by my amp and my earphones so what would be the point?
I guess one possibility would be to take a wired feed (a wedge -or two- could do, as in approach #2) and feed that to my little mixer onstage, then feed the output of the mixer to the transmitter which would be onstage with me, and use the receiver wireless. A cool thing about this is that if I also use my Line6 G30 wireless for the bass, I could be entirely wireless. Presumably having the transmitter onstage would help avoid dropouts? I don't know.
I'm a little lost here...
The second issue... is what system? I'd probably be looking at something like the MEI ONE or MEI 100 or even MEI 1000 at a push. But will they be ok? I'm concerned that the UHF transmission may not be so hot for bass on the cheaper units. At this stage I don't care about how many transmitters can be used with the unit or how many frequencies (I think)... so if that's the only difference between the units then I'd go for the ONE or 100...
Uf.. I have a headache and anybody reading this probably too.
Am I making any sense? Help!

[Guest bassman7755]

The setup I used was a fully wired one, I just taped together a instrument and headphone extension lead, I used a small mixer to mix some amp line out with desk feed (with no bass in it obv). I avoided anything wireless because I dont want to be worrying about whether everything is charged, just eliminates another point of failure.

[pete.young]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1484997010' post='3220235']
Yup! I was thinking that my Q8 would do exactly the same too! I just didn't want to take a full camera with me all the time! let us know if you try it!
[/quote]
If I do try it, I'll let you know. Not sure if it will happen - I've just found out that the status of my main band has been downgraded from 'taking a break until May' to 'wound up altogether unless something remarkable happens in 2018' !

[mike257]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1484305841' post='3214486']
What a great great idea using the Zoom headphones out. Never thought of that and Ive got IEM's just sitting in my guitar case! Ive got an AC moulded earplug at -15DB but I just dont get on with them and everything sounds muffled to me (although I put them in later in the rehersal rather than at the beginning which may be the problem) so will try the "zoom soloution" - Thanks!
[/quote]

If you're waiting until half way through the rehearsal, no wonder it sounds muffled. Your sensitivity to high frequencies is the first thing to suffer when exposed to prolonged high sound level, so by the time you put your plugs in, your ears are likely already fatigued and your hearing is attenuated in this region. You pop the plugs in, and everything is quieter, but you're listening through your already battered ears, so you become more aware of the top end loss. It's like going for a walk in the snow but only putting your coat on after your fingers have turned to icicles, put 'em in before you start!

[Dood]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1485190299' post='3221939']
I've just found out that the status of my main band has been downgraded from 'taking a break until May' to 'wound up altogether unless something remarkable happens in 2018' !
[/quote]

Sad times. Sorry to hear that!

[pete.young]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1485202346' post='3222102']
Sad times. Sorry to hear that!
[/quote]
Thanks for your concern Dood, it's much appreciated. I'm sure another interesting project will come along eventually.

Mcnach, if those wedge monitors are active it's highly likely they'll have a 'line out' for daisy chaining, which would be just the job for you.

[Dood]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1485263174' post='3222570']
Thanks for your concern Dood, it's much appreciated. I'm sure another interesting project will come along eventually.

[/quote]

I feel your pain as it seems I've endured similar over the last year and am chomping at the bit to get creating this year. Yup, I expect it won't be long until you are back on your feet!

[mcnach]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1485263174' post='3222570']
Thanks for your concern Dood, it's much appreciated. I'm sure another interesting project will come along eventually.

Mcnach, if those wedge monitors are active it's highly likely they'll have a 'line out' for daisy chaining, which would be just the job for you.
[/quote]

True, I've seen some active ones that would be easy to get a line out from... The thing is I can't predict what monitor I'll have where, so I have to anticipate various situations, active monitors, passive monitors... various connectors... and it may not be as simple as I thought... I'm not familiar enough with these things... :/

Edited January 25, 2017 by mcnach

[EBS_freak]

This would be so much easier with one or two studiospares splitters and a xr16!

[Dood]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1485005988' post='3220324']


I'm now thinking of trying that myself!

Using this:




using the Zoom H2 for ambient sound, and the OmniCabSim for bass sound, mixed with that little but pretty versatile mixer.

I was checking the H2 the other day in my office (I had the bass at work, and the H2 lives in the gig bag)... It was very interesting to set the gain switch to "High"... I could hear when people were opening doors down the corridor because the whirring noise of the equipment fans in the room... and I could hear conversations quite clearly next door that normally you could not make out... Obviously I'd want the gain set 'LOW' during a gig, as I do for recordings during rehearsal, but that was pretty cool. They're decent little microphones, those in the Zoom units, eh?
[/quote]


I've only just found out the H2N has 4 mics for surround sound. Does the H2? If it does can you get a sum of all through the headphone jack? So possible to pick up sound in front of and behind the device?

[mcnach]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1488031318' post='3245190']
I've only just found out the H2N has 4 mics for surround sound. Does the H2? If it does can you get a sum of all through the headphone jack? So possible to pick up sound in front of and behind the device?
[/quote]

Yes, the H2 has two front and two [s]front[/s] back mics (one set at 90 and another at 120 degrees) but I have not tried the quad mode and see how it sounds through the headphone output.
I haven't tried the set up yet (it's actually going to be slightly different: different mixer and earphones, and bringing signal in from either main desk or tapping one or two monitors directly onstage). The H2 will likely be close to me, at the back, probably high and behind the drummer, so I didn't think of the quad mode as I'll just be using one pair of mics.

Edited February 27, 2017 by mcnach

[Dood]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1488115202' post='3245925']

Yes, the H2 has two front and two front mics (one set at 90 and another at 120 degrees) but I have not tried the quad mode and see how it sounds through the headphone output.
I haven't tried the set up yet (it's actually going to be slightly different: different mixer and earphones, and bringing signal in from either main desk or tapping one or two monitors directly onstage). The H2 will likely be close to me, at the back, probably high and behind the drummer, so I didn't think of the quad mode as I'll just be using one pair of mics.
[/quote]

Thank you! I'm going to try out a stereo system this evening, if that works well I will definitely want to try out the 4 to get an 'all round' mix. I haven't decided on mic placement yet but I'll just see if the theory works in this band environment.

[mcnach]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1488127451' post='3246085']
Thank you! I'm going to try out a stereo system this evening, if that works well I will definitely want to try out the 4 to get an 'all round' mix. I haven't decided on mic placement yet but I'll just see if the theory works in this band environment.
[/quote]


please report back, it'll be interesting to hear how it works for you

[Dood]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1488163747' post='3246439']
please report back, it'll be interesting to hear how it works for you
[/quote]

I ran the H1 last night feeding the output direct to my 64 Audio A8's. I have to say it was a very successful experiment, but I found that Mic placement for this stereo field recorder was important. Pointed away from my bass gear but next to me seemed to work well as I had a really good pick up of the acoustic drums.

I think one of the reasons that the A8's made a good match is that they have a special module in them (ADEL now APEX technology) that does allow then to also work a but like normal ear plugs as a 'side effect'. I've chosen a module with -18db attenuation specifically for the onstage volume I am most likely to encounter. The H1's 'ambient' output therefore added clarity and dimension to what ended up in my lug holes. A very interesting experiment as I didn't really rely on the H1 for say low end as I could feel it as usual, but I blended in just enough from the H1 so that I could hear top end clearly.

I appreciate this whole plan is a bit slap dash and pales in comparison to a full ambient system, but for an 'active personal ambient system' on a shoe string budget, this has been pretty amazing.

I am definitely going to try with the 'surround sound' H2n so I can pick up audio from in front and behind the device, straight to my A8's. Given the results, it's very likely I will do a video explaining everything in more detail.

Kit to test:

Zoom Q4
Zoom Q8
Zoom H2n

The thing I like about the Q8, is that not only does it have stereo microphones on that I can set up in the manner explained above, but it also has a pair of 1/4"/XLR inputs too, so I can feed another two channels of audio in to it - such as a click track or a stereo send from a mixing desk etc. I doesn't do 'rear microphones' though so there's a trade off.

I'll do some pictures and probably a proper thread in time. In short though, of course the Zoom's weren't designed to be ambient monitors, but I can't think of any other gadget on the market that comes close as these do to what I would ideally like to achieve (without going for something like ACS Live!).

Updates soon!

[mcnach]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1488187409' post='3246514']
I ran the H1 last night feeding the output direct to my 64 Audio A8's. I have to say it was a very successful experiment, but I found that Mic placement for this stereo field recorder was important. Pointed away from my bass gear but next to me seemed to work well as I had a really good pick up of the acoustic drums.

I think one of the reasons that the A8's made a good match is that they have a special module in them (ADEL now APEX technology) that does allow then to also work a but like normal ear plugs as a 'side effect'. I've chosen a module with -18db attenuation specifically for the onstage volume I am most likely to encounter. The H1's 'ambient' output therefore added clarity and dimension to what ended up in my lug holes. A very interesting experiment as I didn't really rely on the H1 for say low end as I could feel it as usual, but I blended in just enough from the H1 so that I could hear top end clearly.

I appreciate this whole plan is a bit slap dash and pales in comparison to a full ambient system, but for an 'active personal ambient system' on a shoe string budget, this has been pretty amazing.

I am definitely going to try with the 'surround sound' H2n so I can pick up audio from in front and behind the device, straight to my A8's. Given the results, it's very likely I will do a video explaining everything in more detail.

Kit to test:

Zoom Q4
Zoom Q8
Zoom H2n

The thing I like about the Q8, is that not only does it have stereo microphones on that I can set up in the manner explained above, but it also has a pair of 1/4"/XLR inputs too, so I can feed another two channels of audio in to it - such as a click track or a stereo send from a mixing desk etc. I doesn't do 'rear microphones' though so there's a trade off.

I'll do some pictures and probably a proper thread in time. In short though, of course the Zoom's weren't designed to be ambient monitors, but I can't think of any other gadget on the market that comes close as these do to what I would ideally like to achieve (without going for something like ACS Live!).

Updates soon!
[/quote]


very interesting, Dan!
I'd love to see the video too when it finally happens. I had and H4, Q3 and the H2... the sound quality of all of them was more than decent for what they're designed to do. I captured really nice recordings of an acoustic guitar with my H4, and a little post processing made it shine.

I use the H2 regularly during band rehearsals and indeed, mic placement is very important. Definitely not pointing at the bass amp, as you indicate. I find that placed higher and in front of the drums I get a pretty good sound, with clear drums. I'm hoping that behind the drummer I'll still get a pretty good picture of the drums. He likes a lot of kick on his personal monitor so that would be useful too. The H2 microphones can cope with pretty noisy environments without distorting... I don't expect the quality of a dedicated 'proper' system, but it surely must beat what we normally get using attenuation earplugs alone. The number of times I have had to play where I could just go with drums and a bit of rhythm guitar among the general chaotic onstage sound, often with little bass with the low end reduced drastically as otherwise we just get a horrible boomy noise everywhere... A little in-ear set up with a Zoom H-something for ambience and separate bass feed *must* work out better.
I've been distracted with a few other things the past couple of weeks, but I hope to finish my set up soon and start the live tryouts.

[fleabag]

For anyone thinking of using the quad mic system on your handhelds, how do you prevent over spillage ?

[Dood]

I think in this case, as it is designed to pick up an ambient mix, omnidirectional spillage is actually a good thing. Well it's what I envisage anyway.

[Dood]

It looks like the H2n does have a fader to mix the levels between front and rear mics too though.