Savage review section?

[MoonBassAlpha]

Hi all
This is an idea that struck me after reading our local freely distributed music paper.
At the back is a section for demo reviews which are both ruthless and often hilarious in equal measure.
Credit is given where the demos are considered up to snuff, but if not, oh dear!

Now i know this forum is all about supportive comments and positivity, but often there is a certain truth in the "nastyness" that wouldn't otherwise come out.
So, it is posting your demo in this section and giving free rein to fully express a critique thereof.

For instance, I played an old recording to someone at work. He said "is that you singing? it sounds like Kermit the frog". He wasn't trying to be supportive, or funny or positive, but he was right, I was trying too hard to make it sound gravelly, and sure enough, it was Kermit-y. I won't be doing that again.

If folks know what they're signing up for, there should be no falling out over it. I say "should".....
Might generate a bit more traffic around these parts too.

What do we think?

[ahpook]

Sounds like an awful idea IMHO - even if it's confined to one forum, I'm pretty sure it would lower the tone of the place overall.

[Twigman]

I hate the "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all" attitude that seems prevalent in these parts...i encorage people to speak their minds and/or grow thicker skins

[BassBus]

It's too subjective to be of a lot of use. I do not like Fender P basses at all. Sound, looks, feel just doesn't do it for me. However I accept I am very much in a minority. Equally there are people who hate headless basses. I think they are the best thing since the electric bass was invented. Get my point?

[FinnDave]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1484403717' post='3215237']
Sounds like an awful idea IMHO - even if it's confined to one forum, I'm pretty sure it would lower the tone of the place overall.
[/quote]

I'm all in favour of a lower tone, we are bass players, after all.

[ahpook]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1484408597' post='3215278']
I'm all in favour of a lower tone, we are bass players, after all.
[/quote]

Aaaah, but where does [i]that[/i] kind of tone come from ?

[MoonBassAlpha]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1484403717' post='3215237']
Sounds like an awful idea IMHO - even if it's confined to one forum, I'm pretty sure it would lower the tone of the place overall.
[/quote]
Oh dear. Truth and humour brings down Basschat. We're doomed.

[RockfordStone]

So are we saying savage as in just being honest? Or savage for the sake of being mean in the hope that it might sound funny?.

If the latter I can't see why people would contribute to a post like that. People who are sharing music here are open to criticism and accept it.

There is a subsection where people share their recordings, if you want to offer honest critique then it can be done in there? Don't see why we'd need a thread just to slate the bad points in people's recording.

[xgsjx]

Constructive criticism is a good thing. If people always said "Yeah, that sounds great", then the songwriter/producer could be left feeling that there's nowhere to improve & can't understand why "x" sounds crap.
I need someone to turn & say "That mix is dire! the "x" is too loud & "y" doesn't go with anything else". Thankfully the Mrs does that for me. She lets me know when things sound good & if something's crap she'll say "What was that, did you drop the guitar on the keys?" or something of sarcasm like when I sand a line "Oh won't you help me" in a track, she sad "What, help you to sing!".

I'm up for it.

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1484557146' post='3216214']
Constructive criticism is a good thing. If people always said "Yeah, that sounds great", then the songwriter/producer could be left feeling that there's nowhere to improve & can't understand why "x" sounds crap.
I need someone to turn & say "That mix is dire! the "x" is too loud & "y" doesn't go with anything else". Thankfully the Mrs does that for me. She lets me know when things sound good & if something's crap she'll say "What was that, did you drop the guitar on the keys?" or something of sarcasm like when I sand a line "Oh won't you help me" in a track, she sad "What, help you to sing!".

I'm up for it.
[/quote]
again, constructive criticism is fine, but that is part of why there is a sub section for people to share their tracks, which they do regularly. when i post a song up in it, i welcome constructive criticism.

i'm not against people leaving criticism, and certainly don't believe in protecting snowflakes, but i think if you want to to critique peoples mixes it can be within the confines of the existing sharing sub forum. there is no rule there which says you cant be honest.

[Skol303]

We already have the [url="http://basschat.co.uk/forum/95-share-your-music/"]Share Your Music[/url] forum where constructive (and if necessary brutally honest) feedback is very welcome. So I don't see any need for another sub-forum where people can "speak their minds", as they are already welcome to do so.

...obviously noting the important distinction between "speaking one's mind" and being rude/offensive.

The Recording forum doesn't struggle for traffic because of a lack of honesty; it's quiet down here because the majority of Basschat members aren't interested in writing and recording music: we are by and large a community of pub cover-band players who come here to [i]talk[/i] about bass, rather than talk about recording (there are plenty of other websites where recording is the main topic).

The risk of running a new forum for "savage" reviews is that i) It would be a short-term gimmick; ii) It would devalue the existing 'Share Your Music' forum and iii) It would discourage newcomers to writing and recording, the very group that this forum actively seeks to support. Plus I've seen things turn very sour very quickly on other music websites - people being "thinned skinned" is one thing; setting up a platform for trolling is another. And to be honest, I can't be arsed moderating that.

If the 'Rec forum was already humming with activity there [i]might[/i] be room for such a forum. But as it stands it don't see that it would fit; so I'm going to veto this one. Sorry if that comes across as being, well, savage

Edited January 16, 2017 by Skol303

[Grangur]

Sometime receiving negative feedback is received differently, depending on who it's coming from.

Before posting anything negative to anyone, how do I know that, in the eyes of the artist, I have earned the right to say what I want to say?

If I were Herbie Flowers, or Ed Friedland I'm sure anyone would accept anything I say, but as Grangur... hmmm I dunno.

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1484566943' post='3216318']
Sometime receiving negative feedback is received differently, depending on who it's coming from.

Before posting anything negative to anyone, how do I know that, in the eyes of the artist, I have earned the right to say what I want to say?

If I were Herbie Flowers, or Ed Friedland I'm sure anyone would accept anything I say, but as Grangur... hmmm I dunno.
[/quote]
Every time someone posts something to a forum they know they are opening themselves up to criticism, if they weren't willing to accept it, they wouldn't post.

It depends on how the criticism is offered i guess. you could say
A - "you're drums sound like utter w***, i hate them, it's sh*t"
when all you mean is
B - "i think you could tone down the compression as it makes the drums sound off and hard to listen to"

If you offered A on one of my recordings, id call you a rude name and probably not post again. if you offer me B however, im more inclined to go back and listen to the drums again, because quite often a second set of ears makes a massive difference.

Again, harsh criticism is fair enough, but setting up a sub forum to effectively slate peoples efforts isn't needed.
that depends on how the criticism is offered i guess.

[ahpook]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1484566467' post='3216315']
...people being "thinned skinned" is one thing; setting up a platform for trolling is another.

[/quote]

Here here

[Stylon Pilson]

I agree that honest reviews are important. However, if you set up a forum where the explicit purpose is to post "savage" reviews, then people are going to be exaggeratedly critical for its own sake. Any small criticisms that they have will be inflated beyond all proportion, just for a larf, innit. Where's the usefulness in that?

S.P.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1484566467' post='3216315']
[i][b]It would discourage newcomers to writing and recording, the very group that this forum actively seeks to support.[/b][/i]
[/quote]

An excellent Point, Paul.

I too have seen this attempted on another site.
The only way this sort of thing remotely works is; To leave "Savage" criticism, you must also post up a track yourself.
The thread/forum then suddenly becomes like a morgue. Those Savages then become like pussy cats. Nobody in sight and I wonder why.

Edited January 16, 2017 by lowdown

[xgsjx]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1484570402' post='3216352']
Every time someone posts something to a forum they know they are opening themselves up to criticism, if they weren't willing to accept it, they wouldn't post.

It depends on how the criticism is offered i guess. you could say
A - "you're drums sound like utter w***, i hate them, it's sh*t"
when all you mean is
B - "i think you could tone down the compression as it makes the drums sound off and hard to listen to"

If you offered A on one of my recordings, id call you a rude name and probably not post again. if you offer me B however, im more inclined to go back and listen to the drums again, because quite often a second set of ears makes a massive difference.

Again, harsh criticism is fair enough, but setting up a sub forum to effectively slate peoples efforts isn't needed.
that depends on how the criticism is offered i guess.
[/quote]
You make a good point there. Though going from on BC in general, I don't think genuine members would look to be offensive.
I suppose a better idea is if someone wants honest brutal (but not personal/nasty) criticism, then in the current share your music forum they should just ask for that sort of feedback.

[Skol303]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1484577422' post='3216434']
I suppose a better idea is if someone wants honest brutal (but not personal/nasty) criticism, then in the current share your music forum they should just ask for that sort of feedback.
[/quote]

Exactly. An open invite for [i]"honest feedback wanted - be as brutal as you like!"[/i] is a much better way to go about this.

I've asked for the same on other forums and have received a righteous kicking... but it's been useful. And I asked for it

That way, people can moderate the responses they receive to some extent. Although as I mentioned earlier, honest feedback is [i]always[/i] the most welcome - whether you're a beginner or an old hand. I just want to avoid crossing the line between “honest” and “hurtful”, as it's easy to overstep the mark sometimes without even trying.

...although to be fair, this is one community when such problems are VERY rare indeed. Which is a credit to us all I think

[MoonBassAlpha]

This is it, it can be useful.
This clearly isn't a good idea, so I'll leave it. But I will use the "honest feedback wanted - be as brutal as you like!" next time I post some of our stuff, as I find if I've been listening to stuff for long enough to mix it, I lose any objectivity I might have had at the start.

[fingers211]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1484566943' post='3216318']
Sometime receiving negative feedback is received differently, depending on who it's coming from.

If I were Herbie Flowers, or Ed Friedland I'm sure anyone would accept anything I say, but as Grangur... hmmm I dunno.
[/quote]

Exactly this...
I used my first DAW in april 2016 purely to enter this forum competition. I knew very little then (mmm!) but I remember Douglas(Dad) used to review all the entries. His views and criticism were a great help to me...I'm not sure that had I just been "slated" ,I would have bothered again.
Just my musings......hope he's well.

Nige

[Grangur]

[quote name='fingers211' timestamp='1484667474' post='3217316']
Exactly this...
I used my first DAW in april 2016 purely to enter this forum competition. I knew very little then (mmm!) but I remember Douglas(Dad) used to review all the entries. His views and criticism were a great help to me...I'm not sure that had I just been "slated" ,I would have bothered again.
Just my musings......hope he's well.

Nige
[/quote]

That is slightly different to what I was saying. Yet what you say is true. There are ways to give bad news.

If I were critiquing your playing (if ever...) I would compliment you on something first, then tell you a place for improvement and bring with it advice, if I can on what would be within your grasp to improve it. Then end on a high too.

That way you feel good about it.
... Nice avatar btw

[MoonBassAlpha]

Yes ^ in management terms, a sh!t sandwich!

[Grangur]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1484669414' post='3217340']
Yes ^ in management terms, a sh!t sandwich!
[/quote]
Yeah, alright so you know this. And so will others here. But if anyone else learns from posting it and it saves anyone from getting p!$$ed off, it's worth saying it.

[TorturedSaints]

If you want a 'savage' review (from the professionals!) try posting your mix on the Sound On Sound Forums. Been there, done that and won't be doing that again! Nothing evil or deliberately savage, but it was a very chastening experience for me, although I did get some good tips. I did also have an extended private discussion with a pro mixer and I know where I'll be going for some one-to-one mix tutorials in the future if I ever end up recording a band again.

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='RalphDWilson' timestamp='1485955406' post='3227972']
If you want a 'savage' review (from the professionals!) try posting your mix on the Sound On Sound Forums. Been there, done that and won't be doing that again! Nothing evil or deliberately savage, but it was a very chastening experience for me, although I did get some good tips. I did also have an extended private discussion with a pro mixer and I know where I'll be going for some one-to-one mix tutorials in the future if I ever end up recording a band again.
[/quote]
i spent some time on the sound on sound forums.... they are an odd bunch over there