Advice needed on Barefaced cab conversion

[lownote]

I know the generic arguments on this topic but need a steer from a grown up who has been there and done this in practice.

I just bought a Barefaced Retro 210 off Lozz. It's rated at 12 ohms. I am running it with a Markbass LM2 which technically kicks out 500w @ 4ohms. With the cab in its current config apparently the head only puts out about 200 of those 500w.

I don't want or need another cab, and have bought a BF 12>4ohm conversion kit to unleash all those foaming, effervescing extra watts . But in your view, for a blues band playing in small to medium size venues (band hall type size), is it necessary to fit it? Should I leave well alone at 12 ohm?

Edited January 21, 2017 by lownote12

[skychaserhigh]

Best thing is to try it first , then only make any changes if it doesn't do what you want it to.

[xgsjx]

What he ^ says. Try it first & see if it's loud enough. If not, add it.

The benefit of not adding it means you're running less power through the circuitry, meaning less wear to the components.

[fleabag]

From what i can recall of scientific stuff posted by Mr Claber and BFM, you arent going to be unleashing anything much at all by buying 12 ohm to 4 ohm converter

Going from 200 watts to 500 watts is not much at all in the great scheme of things. IIRC, to double the perceived volume, you'd need about 10 x the power, EG 2000 watts

Someone might corect me if thats wrong

[chris_b]

I agree. . . try first.

I've reduced the master volume on my TH500 amp to between 9 and 10 o'clock with my Super Compacts. I used to run it at about 12 o'clock with my Bergantino cabs.

Barefaced cabs seem to be more efficient, so your cab will be louder which will probably compensate for using fewer watts. I reckon you might be OK with 12ohms.

[Rich]

There's a good impedance thread [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/135-impedance-etc/page__pid__3069542__st__240#entry3069542"]here[/url].

[phil.c60]

I play in a similar band, in similar venues. I use a LM3 and a gen 2 Compact which is 8 ohms. I don't run my passive P bass with the volume on full as I like to be able to turn up a bit for one or two songs, so at about 90% most of the time. I rarely turn the gain up past 1 o'clock, and the master past 1 or 2 o'clock. I'd be surprised, therefore, if you couldn't get enough volume out of your LM2 with the cab as standard. I understand your worries though - it's all very well just trying it, but if that means you spend a whole gig not being able to hear yourself or being as loud as you feel you need to be, it would certainly spoil my night but I don't think that's likely. If you are worried, the amp is designed to run at 4 ohms, so you've got nothing to lose by converting it: Alex doesn't make the conversion kit for fun or because he had nothing better to do one afternoon! If it made no difference to the cab's output, surely he wouldn't bother. If it is going to give you more headroom, why not? Just because you could then be louder doesn't mean you have to! Having said that, he does specifically say that the 4 ohm conversion is to allow you to use a low power amp, and I wouldn't have said 350w at 8 ohms is low - my old rig is an Ampeg B200R combo and that's only 200W but is perfectly adequate for the same band. I'ts just heavy! On balance, I think you'll be fine with it as it is.

Edited January 21, 2017 by phil.c60

[chris_b]

From the Barefaced website. . . .

[i]. . . . When using one 12 ohm cab you'll get 2/3 of the power you'd normally get into an 8 ohm cab but unlike most small 8 ohm cabs the Two10 will handle all that power without distorting so will usually play louder. . . . [/i]

[phil.c60]

Exactly. So 2/3 of 350W is 235W which is more than my perfectly adequate B200R.
Also:
[size=4]"[i][color=#333333]The 4 ohm version exists for two reasons - getting maximum power out of low power amps if you intend to only use one cab or for using with valve amps whose highest impedance tap is 4 Ohms"[/color][/i][/size]
[font="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#333333"]And as I said, I don't think 350W is a "low powered Amp".[/color][/font]

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1484932295' post='3219860']
What he ^ says. Try it first & see if it's loud enough. If not, add it.

The benefit of not adding it means you're running less power through the circuitry, meaning less wear to the components.
[/quote]

Theoretically running at a higher impedance is going to be very marginally more efficient due to the power transfer at a slightly higher voltage but I doubt its noticeable in practice - for a given volume out your going to be using mororeless the same amp power.

Edited January 21, 2017 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1484932679' post='3219867']
Going from 200 watts to 500 watts is not much at all in the great scheme of things. IIRC, to double the perceived volume, you'd need about 10 x the power, EG 2000 watts
[/quote]

What do you imagine the difference is between a "loud" band and a "very loud" band ? say very loud being 25% higher than merely loud ? that 3db or twice the power - so that extra few db between 500 and 200w might be the difference between being loud enough and not loud enough for a particular band.

[fleabag]

I dont imagine - i read what the experts say

Twice the power isnt a 3db increase. I think its something like 10db

Read the BF website. I'm sure its all in there

[lownote]

Thanks for all the help guys. Being bored out of my tiny today I tried swapping the looms but gave up. Not because its technically difficult but you have to disembowel the cab to do the swap, and on a brand new cab things stick to things, and split when you try and seperate them. Plus when you do get the drivers out the loom lurks behind a stapled pile of nylon floss which I suspect will never be the same again if I tear it from its staples. It was starting to feel and look like a bodge and not a new cab anymore and I stopped before doing too much harm.

So, curiosity assuaged, I shall, as everyone suggests, use it as a 12 ohm cab until we get invited to play Wembley - which can't be long now - or it otherwise runs out of puff.

Cheers, assist-folk.

Edited January 21, 2017 by lownote12

[chris_b]

Alex says swapping the loom is a simple job on the website. What you were describing doesn't sound so simple to me.

Are there no instructions with the replacement loom? I'd call Alex and find out how to do this.

[RhysP]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1485013184' post='3220419']
Alex says swapping the loom is a simple job on the website. What you were describing doesn't sound so simple to me.

Are there no instructions with the replacement loom? I'd call Alex and find out how to do this.
[/quote]

Might be simple for somebody who designs & builds cabs for a living, but not for somebody that's not used to doing this kind of stuff.

[TimR]

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1485004977' post='3220308']
I dont imagine - i read what the experts say

Twice the power isnt a 3db increase. I think its something like 10db

Read the BF website. I'm sure its all in there
[/quote]

3dB is double power.
6dB is double actual volume or SPL
10dB is double perceived volume.

[scrumpymike]

Even more difficult if you have the silver cloth grill.

[TimR]

I would take the amp and cab to a practice room and ramp up the volume until you hear distortion.

If the amp is getting to max and distorting then maybe get the change done.
If it's he speaker distorting (hitting xmax) then you're fine.

At least you'll get some idea of how loud it gets.

Be careful!!!

Edited January 21, 2017 by TimR

[fleabag]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1485015756' post='3220443']
3dB is double power.
6dB is double actual volume or SPL
10dB is double perceived volume.
[/quote]

Yup meant to say 10db volume Tim - thanks for correction

[lownote]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1485013184' post='3220419']
Alex says swapping the loom is a simple job on the website. What you were describing doesn't sound so simple to me.

Are there no instructions with the replacement loom? I'd call Alex and find out how to do this.
[/quote]

I was promised instructions, which didn't happen. It's not hard, but you do need to take the whole cab apart to replace the loom on both drivers and the back panel. If it was a knackered old cab I'd just rip it apart, no worries. But when its new and you're trying to keep it that way comes the problem, especially when it's likely the journey is non-mission critical.

Edited January 21, 2017 by lownote12

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1485016555' post='3220451']
Yup meant to say 10db volume Tim - thanks for correction
[/quote]

My point was that at band level volumes 3db is significant possibly highly so.

[beely]

I doubt if you will have any problems getting enough volume.
I'm using a Retro 2x10 12ohm with an EBS Reidmar 250.
Ridiculously loud for such a small set-up.
Volume setting on the amp is never above 2 and I often have to cut back the gain a bit to get finer control.
Like others have said, give it a go: I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[lownote]

Thanks beely, and all who've shared my problem.

[mcnach]

[quote name='lownote12' timestamp='1485018074' post='3220468'] I was promised instructions, which didn't happen. It's not hard, but you do need to take the whole cab apart to replace the loom on both drivers and the back panel. If it was a knackered old cab I'd just rip it apart, no worries. But when its new and you're trying to keep it that way comes the the problem, especially when it's likely the journey is non-mission critical. [/quote]

That sounds like a major pain... I assumed all you needed to do was unscrew the back panel, disconnect the speaker wires one it, and connect them to the new panel... or something very similar to that. What you describe does not sound like fun at all

[lownote]

Nope, it's a whole new loom. Otherwise life would indeed have been easy if it was just a question of swapping in a new back panel.