Are flat radius fingerboards better at achieving an (ultra) low action?

[Greg.Bassman]

Hi all. Hope you’re well. Ok so, I’m a seriously light player; opting for the lowest action I can get.

As much as I love it’s tone, I’m afraid that my Fender jazz (9.5” radius) isn’t quite cutting it in the way of playability; the action kills my left arm and fingers and I find myself choking during fast runs. My local luthier insists that he has taken the action to the lowest it can go without 'buzzing' (much to my dissatisfaction). I decided to persevere regardless, hoping that this may disappear with practice; but a few years down the line, I still seem to be fighting with the ol' jazz.

Anyways, I’ve heard that it is easier to achieve an ultra low action an a flat-radius fingerboard; many 'flat fingerboard converts' noting the increased comfort and dexterity- presumably, because of the low action and string-string evenness. Could this be the move for me, and what things should I keep in mind when making the switch?

P.S - Any 'flat radius' bass model suggestions would be appreciated. Ideally something based on a jazz bass profile, 4-string. My budget is £1000.
Cheers.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[bubinga5]

I don't think a flatter radius makes any difference to how low you can get the action.

[Dood]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1485721407' post='3226153']
I don't think a flatter radius makes any difference to how low you can get the action.
[/quote]

A flatter radius with a very low action will make string bends less likely to choke off. (If string bending is your thing of course. It is mine. I like a tone up and sometimes if it will go, a minor 3rd, certainly a major 3rd on the low strings)

[3below]

Other than for string bends, the flatter radius has no inherent geometric advantage to gain a lower action. How low is your current action? What strings are you using?

[Manton Customs]

Not really, no. If you're luthier is leveling the frets correctly he will level along the string paths rather than exactly to the radius, this creates the same result (as far as action is concerned) as a flat fingerboard.

If you're luthier is leveling with a radius block, then yes, the greater radius on the board will mean a (slightly) higher action... we are talking small amounts here, but it will be more susceptible to choking when bending. A cylinder is really not the optimal shape for a fretboard.

Most luthiers will use a flat block or file, leveling along the strings paths. So I imagine yours has done just this.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Manton Customs

[HowieBass]

What gauge strings are you using? A lighter gauge might help (but expect some change in tone). Does the action seem too high for you all the way along the fretboard or worse say nearer the nut... you mention your bass has been to your local luthier so I hope they've got the nut cut correctly (because if not that could be part of the problem if you struggle in that area). If you're struggling with fast runs I wonder if this could be anything to do with having to stretch alongside what you say is too high an action - maybe a shorter scale instrument might suit you better?

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1485725198' post='3226219']
Other than for string bends, the flatter radius has no inherent geometric advantage to gain a lower action. How low is your current action? What strings are you using?
[/quote]

Hi 3below. Thanks for your response. My luthier simply said that it has received a 'medium low' set up (whatever [i]that[/i] equates to). Presumably, somewhere just alittle lower that the typical 'medium' action. Forgive me, I'm not that technically savvy.

AND I'm currently using Daddario EXL220 nickel wounds (40-95).

Edited January 29, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1485722581' post='3226179']
A flatter radius with a very low action will make string bends less likely to choke off. (If string bending is your thing of course. It is mine. I like a tone up and sometimes if it will go, a minor 3rd, certainly a major 3rd on the low strings)
[/quote]

Hi dood. Thanks for your reply.

Sorry, when I say 'choke' I mean transitioning from string to string (my terminology is all off lol).

I don't do much string bending.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[Greg.Bassman]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][color=#000000]Incidentally, I’ve just found this thread from Basschat last year. Seems to be a mixed bag: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/118532-flat-fingerboard-radius/"]http://basschat.co.u...erboard-radius/[/url][/color][/size][/font]

Edited January 29, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[mybass]

Perhaps visit a bass shop that has some of the slim neck basses like Ibanez, Warwick?

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='mybass' timestamp='1485733704' post='3226326']
Perhaps visit a bass shop that has some of the slim neck basses like Ibanez, Warwick?
[/quote]

Hi mybass. Cheers for your reply. Yes, a trip to my local guitar store is likely, but I just wanted to do my homework first (sometimes the staff don't always know what they're talking about lol)

Edited January 30, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[Greg.Bassman]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color="#000000"]After a quick web search, the flattest radius I can find is 20[/color][color="#000000"]” (ie. Warwick streamer). Is 20” the flattest overall, or is there flatter out there? What measurement is ‘absolutely flat’?...[/color][/font][/size]

[ZilchWoolham]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but absolutely flat would either be 0 or [color=#252525][font=sans-serif][size=3]∞[/size][/font][/color], wouldn't it? I actually saw 0" given as a measurement on a bass not too long ago; unfortunately I can't remember what that particular bass was. I suppose if it's not listed as 0", it would just say flat.

[therealting]

I believe the Scott Devine model has a flat board.

[Andyjr1515]

For what it's worth, my take is that:

As most have said, unless you are doing heavy bends on strings, flatness of fingerboard profile has nothing to do with ability to get a low action

Flatness of the frets or board along the length of the fretboard is, however, critical. As is neck relief and absence of neck twist and absence of large temperature changes (such as cold garage to hot venue)

The flatness of the fretboard profile itself is a very personal thing and depends on hand size and shape, thumb position, playing style and simple personal preference, in addition to neck depth, width and profile, which is why you need to try them - there is no universally perfect profile. But it is probably no coincidence that there are very, very few totally flat profile basses about...

[Grahambythesea]

If you want to get the strings lower you could always go fretless!😎

[Ghost_Bass]

FB radius doesn't affect action appart from the exception that Dood mentioned.

When a bass is set with a very low action the playing attack must be adapted to it, digging the strings harder will make the hit the other frets causing the "choke" and fretbuzz.

If the OP want's low action he needs to play softer and IMO get some higher tension strings as the .040-.100 gauge is too soft and the strings will have a bigger travel when vibrating.

[Jazzjames]

[quote name='Greg.Bassman' timestamp='1485720911' post='3226143']
[size=3][font=Calibri][color=#000000]Hi all.[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000] Hope you[/color][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]’[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]re well. [/color][/font][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]Ok so, I[/color][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]’[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]m a seriously light player; opting for the lowest action I can [/color][/font][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]get[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000].[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]As much as I love it[/color][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]’[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]s tone, I[/color][/font][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]’[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]m afraid that my Fender jazz (9.5[/color][/font][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]” [/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]radius) isn[/color][/font][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]’[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]t quite cutting it in the way of playability; the[/color][/font][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000] action kills my left arm and fingers[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000] and I find myself choking during fast runs. [font=Calibri][color=#000000]My local luthier insists that he has taken the action to the lowest it can go without '[/color][font=Calibri][color=#000000]buzzing' (much to my dissatisfaction). [/color][/font][/font][/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]I decided to persevere regardless, hoping that this may disappear with practice; but a few years down the line, I still seem to be fighting with the ol' jazz.[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]Anyways, I[/color][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]’[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]ve heard that it is easier to achieve an ultra low action an a flat-radius fingerboard[/color][/font][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000];[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000] many 'flat fingerboard converts' noting[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000] the[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000] increased comfort and dexterity-[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000] presumably, because of the low action and string-string evenness. [/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]Could this be the move for me, and what things should I [/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]keep in mind when making the switch?[/color][/font]

[font=Calibri][color=#000000]P.S - Any 'flat radius' bass model suggestions would be appreciated. [font=Calibri][color=#000000]I[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]deally something based on a jazz bass profile, 4-string. My budget is [/color][font=Times New Roman][color=#000000]£[/color][/font][font=Calibri][color=#000000]1000. [/color][/font][/font][/color][/font]
[font=Calibri][color=#000000][font=Calibri][font=Calibri][color=#000000]Cheers.[/color][/font][/font][/color][/font][/size]
[/quote]


Let me preface this by saying I have no idea how you play, and whether music is your profession or not.

I believe that playing with a low action really limits how one can play. With a (relatively) higher action the tone is markedly better to my ear. If you are chasing a super low action because you think it sounds better, cool.

But a lower action because you can't play with even a medium action tells me there's probably something funny going on with your technique that's causing the pain, not the bass.

I would suggest you have a lesson with a good teacher and see what they say about your technique/posture because a lot of issues we think we have with instruments can be solved simply and inexpensively.

Does it sound like I might be onto something, or wide of the mark?

[scrumpymike]

As already mentioned, 20" (e.g. Warwick) is about as flat as you can buy 'off the peg'.

[LukeFRC]

A few things that you've said (this is directed to the OP) make me think that it's possibly more your left hand technique than your bass.
When you play is your left wrist bent or straight? Where does your thumb sit?

[HazBeen]

You see an increasing group of bass players opting for a higher string action (incl. myself) as the tone is much improved, Pattituci, Gwizdala are not the smallest names who have gone down this route.

When I upped the action I felt I was struggling with some of the faster lines, but practice and a lighter touch soon sorted that. Now low action feels all wrong.

My point without wanting to suggest in any way you do not perhaps already do this, perhaps you need to excercise your hands more. Bill Dickens has some good thoughts on how to strenghten muscles and build dexterity whilst using a lighter touch.

[dannybuoy]

I think radius can have an affect, but I'm not sure if it's enough to be significant.

Think of a 5 string bass, as it has a string in the middle making this easier to visualise. The string in the middle is parallel with the neck, but due to the nut width being narrower than the neck pocket, the other strings fan out slightly. For any string at an angle like this, on a flat board, everything is constant, just like the string that goes straight down the middle. But on a radiused board, the frets get further from the string the higher you go due to the curvature.

Take it to extremes and picture a baseball bat with 3 strings anchored to the same point at the 'nut' but widely spaced at the 'bridge' and you can see that on a bass this must have a similar effect no matter how subtle.

[Manton Customs]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1485886243' post='3227517']
I think radius can have an affect, but I'm not sure if it's enough to be significant.

Think of a 5 string bass, as it has a string in the middle making this easier to visualise. The string in the middle is parallel with the neck, but due to the nut width being narrower than the neck pocket, the other strings fan out slightly. For any string at an angle like this, on a flat board, everything is constant, just like the string that goes straight down the middle. But on a radiused board, the frets get further from the string the higher you go due to the curvature.

Take it to extremes and picture a baseball bat with 3 strings anchored to the same point at the 'nut' but widely spaced at the 'bridge' and you can see that on a bass this must have a similar effect no matter how subtle.
[/quote]

Yes, you are inadvertently referring to what I mentioned earlier . You're correct in your thinking and also that the difference is very minor. But it's still there.

However what you're describing is no longer an issue if the frets have been levelled correctly-along the string paths rather than to the radius. Most factory basses don't have their frets levelled at all, so come as you describe with the frets plane following the radius rather than string paths.

Again, the actual difference in action height is very minor, probably somewhere in the 0.25- 0.5mm area. I'd also imagine the OPs luthier has done just as I describe, as it's not particularly common to level with a radius block.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Manton Customs

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='Jazzjames' timestamp='1485786515' post='3226661']
But a lower action because you can't play with even a medium action tells me there's probably something funny going on with your technique that's causing the pain, not the bass.
[/quote]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1485791401' post='3226701']
A few things that you've said (this is directed to the OP) make me think that it's possibly more your left hand technique than your bass.
[/quote]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1485798844' post='3226804']
My point without wanting to suggest in any way you do not perhaps already do this, perhaps you need to excercise your hands more.
[/quote]

[size=4][color="#000000"]Lol, thank you for your concern guys, but rest assured, all is fine in that department. I’ve played semi-professionally for approximately 4 years now; playing in the company of some very fine musicians (some being bass teachers)- none of which, I’m glad to report, have never felt the need to correct me on my left/right hand technique.[/color][/size]
[size=4] [/size]
[size=4][color="#000000"]But you are right though, correct technique and exercises are very important! [size=4] [/size][/color][/size]

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1485727601' post='3226248']
...maybe a shorter scale instrument might suit you better?
[/quote]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color="#000000"]Hi howiebass. That[/color][color="#000000"]’[/color][color="#000000"]s an interesting idea. What model would you recommend?[/color][/font][/size]