'Improving live tone' thread

[ChunkyMunky]

I'm eyeing up an isolation riser for whatever bass cabinet I'm going to buy. It's an initiative to improve my live bass tone but I'm also thinking on how else I can improve it all? Manipulating the natural acoustics of a room? Shaping the tone to mesh around the kick drum? What do you fine creatures do to ensure a great bass tone live? I'd love to hear your suggestions and try them out.

[Lozz196]

I find getting an on-stage sound that is just a tad more middy/trebly than I like to hear translates out front as a good defined sound. get a warm rich sound on stage and out front = mush.

[xgsjx]

Isolation risers such as gramma pads or drum riser foam are advertised as being able to reduce boom (I bought a length of drum riser foam & chopped it in 1/2), but sitting the cab on a beer crate or a couple of bricks usually has the same effect.
Like Lozz says, the best way to get rid of boom is to turn the lows down a bit.

[ChunkyMunky]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1486627940' post='3233292']
I find getting an on-stage sound that is just a tad more middy/trebly than I like to hear translates out front as a good defined sound. get a warm rich sound on stage and out front = mush.
[/quote]

Strangely enough, that's a fantastic suggestion. I'm surprised I've not thought of this before. I'm guessing an extra long jack cable/wireless system and exploring the place might help out a lot more when soundchecking?

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1486629311' post='3233300']
Isolation risers such as gramma pads or drum riser foam are advertised as being able to reduce boom (I bought a length of drum riser foam & chopped it in 1/2), but sitting the cab on a beer crate or a couple of bricks usually has the same effect.
Like Lozz says, the best way to get rid of boom is to turn the lows down a bit.
[/quote]

https://www.studiospares.com/Headphones-and-Speakers/Speaker-Spares-and-Accessories/Studiospares-Speaker-Isolation-Riser_465310.htm

This took my fancy. Forget the Gramma pads, those are silly expensive!

[Japhet]

If you end up with a cab with a port in the back, put it close to a wall to strengthen the sound projection. I'd also say cut the lows and boost the mids/upper mids a bit. Have a wander out front when you sound check to get an idea of how loud you are in the mix. I've had cabs in the past that don't disperse the sound very well, and what is barely audible on stage is deafening 30 feet away.

[No lust in Jazz]

it's odd, the search for 'tone' takes us bass players into some often expensive experiments.

The tone on isolated bass tracks often shows that what works for the music isn't necessarily a great solo tone.

Personally I send the DI from a pedal to FOH, use a small combo as a monitor to hear myself - thus I can adjust frequencies to suit what I need to hear and I let the soundman adjust the pedal output to suit FOH band requirements.

[Happy Jack]

I find the best way to get a great sound is to always play in exactly the same place in the same room using the same bass through the same rig at the same volume.

As soon as I try playing in a different pub it all goes to sh*t.

[Adrenochrome]

I cut loads of low bass. Sub bass is your enemy on stage at reasonably loud volumes.

[PaulWarning]

cut the low frequencies, I've found I have to cut 60Hz to cut boom (Trace GP12 and P bass) then boost low mids (100 - 200 Hz) a touch if necessary, but yeah go wireless or a long lead, get 30 feet away from your cab and the tone can alter quite dramatically depending on the room, obviously this is if you're not going through a PA, if I am I go post EQ from my amp, at least I have some control over what's happening FOH, my partner knows what I should sound like and lets me know if things aren't right

[ambient]

I find you don't usually need to stray too far from your flat sound, though this probably depends on what you're using. I use matkbass gear which I love.

Certainly leave the mids alone, it's these that I find give your sound the ability to be heard. Any honkiness will disappear when the band start.

IMO people fiddle too much.

We also play too loud.

[chris_b]

This is so subjective. Some players sound terrible to me and everyone else thinks they have the best sound in the world! So who can say!

IMO good advice is all about common sense. Buy the best gear you can find and make yourself afford it. Start with a good bass with good strings. One thing kills tone more than anything else, gear thrashing away at the top of its range, so get an amp that doesn't need much EQing to get "your" tone and is more powerful than you need. Believe that more "headroom" will get you a better sound, because it will. Get the best cabs you can find. They'll translate your sound into the SPL that everyone else hears. Cut corners here and the you're wasting your talent and the quality of all your other gear and throwing away the best opportunity you have for greatness.

A huge low end causes problems in too many rooms. The best bass tone is located in the mids and low mids. Get that right and you can own the mix, but don't go too low or you'll undo all the good work.

People say there is no difference between bell wire and good leads. I don't believe that. The people who don't benefit from good leads probably have a bad sound to start with. Get good leads. Gramma pads are supposed to reduce the bad sound your bass can generate on hollow stages. Their benefits may be limited to specific locations but I've experience of them killing the problems of one bad stage, so as they don't hurt and can work, I'll use them as an insurance policy.

IMO the guys who have the best tone are the best players. It's a sliding scale from there down and the guys who work harder usually sound better. Improving your tone is more than twiddling the knobs in a certain way. Get lessons and make yourself worthy of all the great great you buy.

The only way you can get this right is if you use your experience, brain and ears. Protect your ears or you won't be able to tell a bar of music from a bar of soap.

[spectoremg]

I park my cabs on two of those kneel down gardening pads - cheap as chips.

Can we have another Fender thread or one about heft now please?

[Painy]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1486638828' post='3233410']
This is so subjective. Some players sound terrible to me and everyone else thinks they have the best sound in the world! So who can say!

IMO good advice is all about common sense. Buy the best gear you can find and make yourself afford it. Start with a good bass with good strings. One thing kills tone more than anything else, gear thrashing away at the top of its range, so get an amp that doesn't need much EQing to get "your" tone and is more powerful than you need. Believe that more "headroom" will get you a better sound, because it will. Get the best cabs you can find. They'll translate your sound into the SPL that everyone else hears. Cut corners here and the you're wasting your talent and the quality of all your other gear and throwing away the best opportunity you have for greatness.

A huge low end causes problems in too many rooms. The best bass tone is located in the mids and low mids. Get that right and you can own the mix, but don't go too low or you'll undo all the good work.

People say there is no difference between bell wire and good leads. I don't believe that. The people who don't benefit from good leads probably have a bad sound to start with. Get good leads. Gramma pads are supposed to reduce the bad sound your bass can generate on hollow stages. Their benefits may be limited to specific locations but I've experience of them killing the problems of one bad stage, so as they don't hurt and can work, I'll use them as an insurance policy.

IMO the guys who have the best tone are the best players. It's a sliding scale from there down and the guys who work harder usually sound better. Improving your tone is more than twiddling the knobs in a certain way. Get lessons and make yourself worthy of all the great great you buy.

The only way you can get this right is if you use your experience, brain and ears. Protect your ears or you won't be able to tell a bar of music from a bar of soap.
[/quote]

You could quite easily take down this whole forum and just replace it with a link to this single post.
Alright maybe keep the market place and the Gear Porn but apart from that.....

[xgsjx]

We're all assuming that you play in a rock/indie/guitarist band.
If you're a different genre, such as DnB or Jazz, you might want to keep all those lovely lows & mess about with the mids & low mids instead.

[Ghost_Bass]

IMO and IME isolation bases like gramma pads and the likes don't do much effect. They can reduce floor coupling but don't avoid having your cab sitting low, close to the floor and pumping sound to your legs. Wou won't hear the highs and mids clearly, only the lows.

My rather inexpensive solution to this is to use a amp stand. This is the one i'm using:


It's a amp stand from Warwick, Rockstand RS 23010, was something like 30€ from Thomman. It's adjustable in height and i can use it with with a boom bigger then the other to use the combo slanted if i want. I've been using it to raise my 2x12" for the past 3 years with great results. A chair, beer crate, drummers case, empty hardcase, etc. all work fine aswell as long as they can raise your cab(s) enough to have the driver (and tweeter) pointing directly at your ears.

Setting up the gear away from corners everytime possible is also great to avoid a boomy stage due to wall reinforcement and result in a clear tone with note-to-note definition.

Another thing, as sujested, is to pay attention to the sub-low region of your EQ. If you're going through the PA then you can HPF on the 70-80Hz and that will clean up your lows surprisingly well. If providing bass for the room from your gig you'll need more lows but keep in mind that that comes at the cost of a muddy stage sound.

Another thing to pay attention is to not get an excessive scooped sound, that may sound great in the bedroom or when you're soundcheking alone but add a band to the mix and the bass will get lost and your band mates won't be able to hear you well.


Just by doing all this things i can get my stage sound cristal clear whith more than enough low end to be felt and everybody can hear me. This also allows me to play at a lower volume and be able to hear the rest of the band while saving my ears from premature deafness. I have constant compliments to my sound from the band and the audience. When we (the band members) go out for a drink or listen to some live music my guitar player is allways telling me how much he prefers my sound to what we're listening so i must be doing something right, i think

[TimR]

You only need to isolate the cab if you are playing on a hollow platform. The cab couples with the airspace underneath which causes the boom.

If you can't hear 'your tone' from your back line it may be because you are using a 1x15" or a 4x10" which will be pushing the sound out from below your waistline and the mids and highs will not be going to your ears.

I use 2x 2x10" stacked vertically, not because it is louder (most gigs the amp is below 4 on the dial), but because the top speaker is level with your ears. There's a reason 8x10s sound so good.

Angling the cab up towards you may make it slightly clearer but could mess with what the audience hear. Lifting the whole cab onto a stand could decouple the bass from the floor and you then lose the bass in the audience.

Edited February 9, 2017 by TimR

[Muppet]

The key would be focusing on what sounds good in a band mix and be prepared for that to sound quite different to what you imagine a good tone to be when solo. Some of the worse bass sounds I've heard from bands is where the bass player focus solely on what he can hear standing by his cab and assuming that's what the audience will experience.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1486641789' post='3233444']
IMO and IME isolation bases like gramma pads and the likes don't do much effect. They can reduce floor coupling but don't avoid having your cab sitting low, close to the floor and pumping sound to your legs. Wou won't hear the highs and mids clearly, only the lows.

My rather inexpensive solution to this is to use a amp stand. This is the one i'm using:


It's a amp stand from Warwick, Rockstand RS 23010, was something like 30€ from Thomman. It's adjustable in height and i can use it with with a boom bigger then the other to use the combo slanted if i want. I've been using it to raise my 2x12" for the past 3 years with great results. A chair, beer crate, drummers case, empty hardcase, etc. all work fine aswell as long as they can raise your cab(s) enough to have the driver (and tweeter) pointing directly at your ears.

Setting up the gear away from corners everytime possible is also great to avoid a boomy stage due to wall reinforcement and result in a clear tone with note-to-note definition.

Another thing, as sujested, is to pay attention to the sub-low region of your EQ. If you're going through the PA then you can HPF on the 70-80Hz and that will clean up your lows surprisingly well. If providing bass for the room from your gig you'll need more lows but keep in mind that that comes at the cost of a muddy stage sound.

Another thing to pay attention is to not get an excessive scooped sound, that may sound great in the bedroom or when you're soundcheking alone but add a band to the mix and the bass will get lost and your band mates won't be able to hear you well.


Just by doing all this things i can get my stage sound cristal clear whith more than enough low end to be felt and everybody can hear me. This also allows me to play at a lower volume and be able to hear the rest of the band while saving my ears from premature deafness. I have constant compliments to my sound from the band and the audience. When we (the band members) go out for a drink or listen to some live music my guitar player is allways telling me how much he prefers my sound to what we're listening so i must be doing something right, i think
[/quote]

How would you reach the knobs on an ampeg head on top of an ampeg 8x10 all the way up there?

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1486647096' post='3233506']
How would you reach the knobs on an ampeg head on top of an ampeg 8x10 all the way up there?
[/quote]

There's a trampoline next to the cab for that purpose. It's also entertaining for the audience.

[chris_b]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1486648050' post='3233516']
There's a trampoline next to the cab for that purpose. It's also entertaining for the audience.
[/quote]

Useless facts. . . . In the early 70's Nils Lofgren used to jump off the drum riser into a trampoline and somersault across the stage.

edit Whilst playing. . . .

Edited February 9, 2017 by chris_b

[KevB]

Theres a lot to be said for getting either a long lead or wireless and being able to go out front whilst everyone else is playing at soundcheck, sound (tone and relative volume) can be entirely different from what you are picking up standing 2 feet away from your cabs. It's really only getting some idea of what joe public is actually hearing that you can then start addressing what needs tweaking on stage.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1486647096' post='3233506']
How would you reach the knobs on an ampeg head on top of an ampeg 8x10 all the way up there?
[/quote]

I could place it on it's side, it wouldn't make a difference in the noise comming out of it.. In fact, if i had an Ampeg 8x10 i wouldn't even bother to hook it up, no magic in the world could change that rumble in to a clean, flat tone...

[mikel]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1486641138' post='3233435']
We're all assuming that you play in a rock/indie/guitarist band.
If you're a different genre, such as DnB or Jazz, you might want to keep all those lovely lows & mess about with the mids & low mids instead.
[/quote]

Exactly. Its very subjective. A great sound to you may be horrible to others, and vice versa. When Yes first kicked off all the pundits questioned Mr Squire's bass sound. Just cos it wasnt like everyone else.

[taunton-hobbit]

My (predictable) fourpenneth - buy a bluddy great Matamp & chuck the sound through a Gen3 Barefaced cab.........!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1486648050' post='3233516']


There's a trampoline next to the cab for that purpose. It's also entertaining for the audience.
[/quote]

That would require me coming out from behind my obligatory pillar!