Of amplifiers and communication

[Happy Jack]

THE SCENE: An email conversation between the main authorised dealer for a famous electrical brand, and a hapless musician.

Lights ... camera ... and ACTION!



[color=#0000ff][u][b]Me to Them:[/b][/u] [/color]

[color=#0000ff]I bought a pre-owned Model XXX a few years ago. It has run perfectly until now, but Channels 1 & 2 seem to have "fried" in some way. Channels 3 & 4 seem fine to me. What would be involved in getting this amp sorted out?[/color]

[color=#800000][u][b]Them to Me: [/b][/u][/color]

[color=#800000]Thank you for contacting XXX with your repair query. We would be delighted to take a look at your unit for you & will be able to provide you with an exact quote for repair once your unit has undergone a full diagnostics check by one of our qualified Technicians. Please see details below regarding our fees & next steps…[/color]

[color=#800000]Handling Fee[/color]
[color=#800000]An handling Fee of £50+Vat is chargeable on all repairs and payable before an investigation can be carried out by our Technicians. This is non-refundable.[/color]

[color=#800000]Labour Charge[/color]
[color=#800000]£36+Vat per half hour[/color]

[color=#800000]Parts[/color]
[color=#800000]If any parts are required, we will always quote you and get your full approval prior to continuing with any further repair work.[/color]

[color=#800000]P&P[/color]
[color=#800000]A P&P Fee of £15+Vat will apply to all returned units – repaired/ un-repaired - which will be payable prior to the return of your equipment[/color]

[color=#800000]We look forward to hearing from you soon.[/color]

[color=#0000ff][u][b]Me to Them:[/b][/u][/color]

[color=#0000ff]Unfortunately, this seems to say that (allowing two hours for your technician to do his diagnostics and write his report) I'll be spending about £250 to get an opinion as to whether or not it's worth trying to repair the amp![/color]

[color=#0000ff]It's hard to see how that makes economic sense, so I think I'll pass.[/color]

[color=#800000][u][b]Them to Me:[/b][/u][/color]

[color=#800000]No problem at all, the £60.00 is what covers the technician diagnosing the unit & quoting for the repair so if the unit only takes half an hour to repair (which is the usual case with most of these units) & requires no parts then the cost would be the £36.00 labour & the return carriage so the total cost would be £101.00 plus vat.[/color]

[color=#800000]If you decline the repair & you want the unit returning then it will just be the return carriage that’s payable.[/color]

[color=#800000]It will cost you £60.00 to find out what wrong with it, and you decide from there, not £250.00, just to clarify.[/color]


[color=#0000ff][u][b]Me to Them:[/b][/u][/color]

[color=#0000ff]Not trying to irritate you, but the initial answer said "[/color][color=#ff0000][i]An handling Fee of £50+Vat is chargeable on all repairs and payable before an investigation can be carried out by our Technicians[/i][/color][color=#0000ff]."[/color]

[color=#0000ff]That is VERY different from "[/color][color=#ff0000][i]the £60.00 is what covers the technician diagnosing the unit & quoting for the repair[/i][/color][color=#0000ff][i]"[/i]! So it's not a handling fee at all, it is the actual charge for the investigation?[/color]

[color=#0000ff]You might want to re-visit your standard reply to enquiries such as mine, because that's really quite misleading.[/color]

[color=#0000ff]Before I make a final decision on whether or not to go ahead, can you please confirm that my question has got it right.[/color]

[color=#800000][u][b]Them to Me:[/b][/u][/color]

[color=#800000]I was only clarifying & trying to help, advising that it wouldn’t cost you £250.00 to find out what is wrong with it, it is in fact an investigation fee, however, the manufacturers refer to this as a handling fee and as we are there service centre for them, they advised us to also refer to it as the handling fee, apologies for any confusion with this.[/color]

[color=#800000]It will cost you £50.00 plus vat £60.00 total to find out what wrong with it & get a quote from there.[/color]

[color=#800000]If you’re not happy with the costs etc you can always return the unit back to the manufacturer.[/color]


and ... CUT!

Edited February 21, 2017 by Happy Jack

[franzbassist]

On the plus side, at least they actually engaged you in an email conversation, unlike some manufacturers who never even reply....

[Low End Bee]

Clear as mud. Expensive mud.

[spyder]

I work in the hifi industry and most of the manufacturers have a fixed repair fee no matter if a fuse needs changing or a whole replacement unit is sent back.Cost vary from £250 and £400.
And postage charges are on top.

Edited February 21, 2017 by spyder

[Jazzjames]

If we're talking about that kind of money and they're going to make simple errors like 'there' instead of 'their', I would go elsewhere. Edit: maybe I'm being a bit harsh here.

Where are you based? There's a thread on here of amp techs that people have recommended, maybe you could find an independent professional to take a look at it. It could be a lot quicker and cheaper.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Jazzjames

[Bigwan]

[quote name='Jazzjames' timestamp='1487686429' post='3241817']
If we're talking about that kind of money and they're going to make simple errors like 'there' instead of 'their', I would go elsewhere. Edit: maybe I'm being a bit harsh here.
[/quote]

80% of degree educated electronic engineers can't spell in my experience (18 years in the industry). Don't even get me started on their grammar! The younger they are, the worse it gets.

[Downdown]

The problem is, what's the alternative? Imagine you were setting up a repair business, how would you deal with such things if you had to earn a living from it as well as pay for all the business overheads of a workshop, test equipment, etc etc.

I find that depreciation is a useful concept in this regard. So, you buy, say, an amp for, say £500, and it works fine for, say, 10 years before breaking. Is it really worth £500 after all that time? I don't think so. in fact, at around £1 per week I'd say it has done pretty well. I've got an old Ampeg combo that I bought second hand about £30 years ago - when it breaks it'll be going in the skip and I'll buy something new. it's the way of the world we live in.

[Happy Jack]

Not sure you quite get the idea of "vintage" ...

[T-Bay]

[quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1487687191' post='3241828']


80% of degree educated electronic engineers can't spell in my experience (18 years in the industry). Don't even get me started on their grammar! The younger they are, the worse it gets.
[/quote]
Having designed and built electric race cars the dealings I have had with electronics engineers over the years have had me pulling my hair out. I have only met one reliable one in all the years and he is now one of my best mates. He is the first to say what an unreliable bunch they are as a whole. Good ones are in such demand they can get away with being unreliable and troublesome in ways other trades can't. Bad ones still get by as often they are the only ones you can get to look at stuff as the good ones are so busy!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1487691691' post='3241878']
He is the first to say what an unreliable bunch they are as a whole.
[/quote]
More so than musicians?

[T-Bay]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1487694361' post='3241910']

More so than musicians?
[/quote]
now there is a question..........

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1487687191' post='3241828']
80% of degree educated electronic engineers can't spell in my experience (18 years in the industry). Don't even get me started on their grammar! The younger they are, the worse it gets.
[/quote]
I'm hoping you did mean "grammar" if you yourself fall in that 80%!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

This is why you take it to a local repairman.

[Downdown]

Yes, but even a local repairman should be charging for his time, his test equipment, etc etc. For anything non-trivial (e.g. a blown fuse) almost any fault diagnosis is going to take an hour or so, and £50 for that seems reasonable to me.

[Phil Starr]

IME it often takes longer to find a fault than to fix it. Charging you for 45mins labour to diagnose a fault which at the very least is probably going to involve removing the case opening up the amp a quick visual inspection, connecting everything up on the bench maybe some quick tests with a meter and then reassembling the amp for return isn't unreasonable. £72 an hour is more than almost any local repairman would charge though.

So it's the car analogy again, what do you think the labour charges should be for your car, would you expect the main dealer to charge more than a local garage? It'd pay you to shop around but in this case I don't think you are being ripped off, if that was your worry.

Bad luck, hope you get it fixed soon.

[Saved]

Whell..lets say,i have an amp with problem,and go to a repair man.After 2 days he calls me and telling "i cant find the problem,but you have to pay the time i spend 50€"
Then go to next one,and the same thing.The third,again.
Then what?i have spend 150€ to find that my amp has a problem that those 3 repairmen couldnt find?
No..i pay you ti find the problem.If you cant find it,you ate not gonna pay.Why?because you may had other thinks to do,and didnt check my amp and telling me lies.
You taking money to repair amps,not to tell me "i cant fix it"
If paying for "i cant fix it" then,please,all of you send me your amps,i charge only 10€ for every "i cant fix it"
I thing its very good price..

[fleabag]

Dalight robbery.

I'll not be able to diagnose your faulty amp for £7

[Cathode_Follower]

Dang, I don't think I've ever charged more that a tenner an hour for my repair services. Sod being a musician, I'm off to buy a fresh reel of solder and make my fortune!

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1487691691' post='3241878']
Having designed and built electric race cars the dealings I have had with electronics engineers over the years have had me pulling my hair out. I have only met one reliable one in all the years and he is now one of my best mates. He is the first to say what an unreliable bunch they are as a whole. Good ones are in such demand they can get away with being unreliable and troublesome in ways other trades can't. Bad ones still get by as often they are the only ones you can get to look at stuff as the good ones are so busy!
[/quote]Are you talking about Engineers, Technicians or just repairers?

[T-Bay]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1487761989' post='3242489']
Are you talking about Engineers, Technicians or just repairers?
[/quote]

Engineers as it says, I don't have much experience with people who term themselves as the others but my electronics engineer mate is equally scathing about ANYONE involved in the electronics business!

Edited February 22, 2017 by T-Bay

[Naetharu]

I'd give a +1 for speaking to a local amp tech. I had a guitar amp (THD Univalve) repaired a couple of years ago after it started blowing a fuse every time it was turned off. I don't know the exact cost but I think around £25-30/hour was the rate charged. Over £70/hour is a bit crazy, you're asking for someone to repair an amp, not build you a space-rocket.

[Phil Starr]

The truth is that the amp repair business is not far removed from getting your car fixed. Anyone can wield a spanner and call themselves a mechanic and may do a perfectly good job of changing a tyre. Charges range from not much more than minimum wage to £130 an hour (and upwards probably). Unfortunately the way cars are manufactured makes them harder and harder to fix and if the electronics in your car don't display the correct fault codes there are very few who know what to do next. (bitter experience here)

Amps are going the same way, there are a lot of non serviceable parts now, so a new circuit board is increasingly the 'repair', often these are unavailable and cost close to the price of a new amp so even a simple fault can be uneconomic to repair. With so much gear being produced in China even something simple like a non standard jack socket can hold up a repair due to unavailability over here. On top of this component counts are going through the roof as more features are added to even quite modest gear. This goes right through the consumer electronics industry. Who nowadays takes in a broken DVD player or five year old TV in for repair?

So put yourself into the repairers shoes. He has to make a living, a few hundred quid a week to pay the bills. You walk in with your dead amp and say, 'can you take a look, it's something simple it was working yesterday' He plugs it in and nothing, no clues. He knows from experience that it's going to take a couple of hours to open up and investigate and he has a 50/50 chance of finding a repairable fault. Then it is going to take him an hour on the phone tracking down a part. If he takes it on he's faced with telling you parts and labour are £200 and you'll go and buy a used one on ebay or replace it with a new amp for just over £300. If you are lucky it'll just be a broken wire and he can resolder it but there's no way of telling without opening it up.

When you make what seems like a reasonable request to 'have a look, tell me what's wrong and how much it will cost' you are actually asking 'please give me an hour's free labour' with a 50/50 chance you won't go ahead anyway. I'm afraid an upfront fee with no guarantees is pretty inevitable.

[Saved]

I know that technicians have to live without become burglers,but they have to charge less than they do.
Look.I am farmer.A few years ago my tractor had a problem.I went to an michanical,and he checked it out.Next day he told me that he has already order the spares and is waiting.3 days later he calls me and telling me that cost 1000€.
I go,i pay and i took the traktor.I asked him to give the old spares and he tells me he throw them in garbages.
10 days later,the same problem.I called him and tells me to find a broken screw between the wheels and replace it.10 days later,the same thing.Then i go to an other mechanical.Next day calls me and i go to see what hapend.Well..there was a big problem with the front axle,and the screw was to be cut if there is a problem,so you can see it and fix it.I payed 1500€ to this one and the problem is disapered.What i have found out is that the first mechanical didnt fix nothing,didnt even used spares.He stoll 1000€ from me.Thats why now i am not paying for "i cant fix it"
Yes you will fix it,you will saw me the problem before you fix it,i bring you the spares (that cost 100€ and you telling me 400€spares and 200€ for the service) you give me the old spares,i try it a few days,and if it is ok,i will pay you

[mike257]

All the good techs I know charge an initial bench fee. The hourly rate seems high compared to local independent techs, but a big company has different overheads in terms of administration, premises, insurance, human resources etc than a local guy working from home or a small workshop. Not that unreasonable really. The other thing is that going to an authorised repair centre shouldn't affect your warranty, whilst letting someone else open it up probably would, so if you're still in the warranty period it's worth considering.

[krispn]

I went to a local repair guy who told me its a £30 bench fee plus vat upfront for diagnostic. Paid up to be told it would be three to four weeks before it's ready to be looked at excluding actual 'repair' time.

I had a last minute gig and called to say I needed the cab, got to the shop and the place was reeking of weed (it was a Saturday, two employees, no 'jobs on the bench') no signs of any actual work being done and once I got the cab in the car the cover was also stinking of weed. I'm heading back down today for a refund. I don't care if they're stoners but a three to four week wait and £36 up front so these lads can mooch about? No ta! I usually go via a local guitar shop. Drop the stuff off on a Friday collect the following Friday, £25 bench cost.

I thought I'd go local as it's literally 5 minutes drive from my place. Needless to say I'll be dropping it off the next time I have a week without gigs.

I get people need paid and it's a 'specialist' service but there's taking the p*ss