fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I'm selling a guitar on Ebay, and have said in the auction that i want collection in person. I also said that anyone needing it posting will have to arrange it themselves, as i dont want the risk of a courier causing damage by drop kicking it around their warehouse or throwing it around and somehow damaging the contents. I have proper guitar packing but i still dont want the risk. Its probably a long shot that it would get damaged, but its my choice. A guy has messaged me saying would i pack it and take it to a drop off depot. I said no, for the reasons above, which are stated in the auction. I'm assuming he read that but ignored it. So i get this this meassge... quote.. [b] [i]Hello , In my experience you cannot reduce your responsibility by not being the one who pays the courier, because Ebay give a customer guarantee that the buyer will receive the item they want in the condition they expect or be eligible for a return or refund. I send out two or three guitars each week and have found it is all about packing really well to get them there in one piece... even if I send a courier you still have to pack the guitar ready for him to collect.[/i][/b] Now, if the courier does deliver the guitar and they've damaged it, how on earth can i deal with the courier that i didnt book, dont have the order numbers for, or the invoice ? He mentions its all about the packing, but i've already stated that i have the proper packing. He's not listening or reading what i stated I've posted guitars before without problem, but i've not booked the courier. Thats my choice, as i said The responsibility that i have is that the guitar is as described. Isn't it ? If i misrepresented what i was selling, i would have it back and refund., but i dont do that because its not worth the hassle, and its morally wrong to sell someone something that isnt what i described. I'm careful to list things correctly to avoid those situations So what is he on about ? Also it appears he's a dealer and he maybe getting confused and thinks i'm also a dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyder Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) In my experience you are opening yourself up to a classic eBay scam. You sell a guitar and offer personal collection or say the buyer can arrange a couier. Lets say the buyer arranged a pickup and pays using PayPal. You think everything is ok until the buyer puts a PayPal claim against you for non delivery. PayPal rules say you have to post the item and provide a tracking number. As you can't provide the tracking as you did not post the item out PayPal will refund the buying in full and you will lose your guitar and money. Just be careful as this has happened to me. Edited February 22, 2017 by spyder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I have had a bass damaged by a courier despite it being very carefully packed (in case, in strong box, with plenty of bubble wrap. The courier's small print restricted payouts for damage to musical instruments to £100.00 despite me taking out extra insurance for it. These days I arrange to meet people half way between our homes, if that's not possible then I won't buy or sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 I hear ya I know this scam Spyder, which is why i stated cash only if collecting In fact, in the last 13 years on Ebay, i've never accepted any PP payments on collected items, for the very reasons you state Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1487752523' post='3242342'] I have had a bass damaged by a courier despite it being very carefully packed (in case, in strong box, with plenty of bubble wrap. The courier's small print restricted payouts for damage to musical instruments to £100.00 despite me taking out extra insurance for it. These days I arrange to meet people half way between our homes, if that's not possible then I won't buy or sell. [/quote] Yeah seems like a good idea Dave, but then if the buyer arranges the courier, and if the courier does damage, its the buyer who has to deal with them and get their money back. Well thats how i see it, but then i had doubts, which is why i posted about it in case i was wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 In my case, I had arranged the courier, but won't be doing it again. I went up to Leicester last Sunday to meet a Basschatter from Leeds who bought a synth from me, and am going to Birmingham next Saturday to meet someone from Chester who I have just bought a bass from. Bit of a hassle but better then stuff getting damaged. No experience with rip offs, no one has ever tried anything like that with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyder Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487752772' post='3242344'] Yeah seems like a good idea Dave, but then if the buyer arranges the courier, and if the courier does damage, its the buyer who has to deal with them and get their money back. Well thats how i see it, but then i had doubts, which is why i posted about it in case i was wrong [/quote] Think you are right. If the buyer arranged the courier and it is damaged, the buyer has to sort out the problem as you are not responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Technically the buyer is responsible if they have arranged the courier. However if you you don't want the hassle of potential damage to the instrument by posting, then simply don't offer it as an option, or even mention it in your listing. State cash on collection only. If potential buyers can't accept this you don't have to sell it to them. If necessary remove any bids they have made and block them on eBay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='spyder' timestamp='1487753183' post='3242353'] Think you are right. If the buyer arranged the courier and it is damaged, the buyer has to sort out the problem as you are not responsible. [/quote] Those were my thoughts, sometimes you get doubts on the legalities, especially since this guy told me i was still responsible for the courier that HE books. I just couldn't see how i'd be able to deal with a courier that someone else booked, who'd damaged goods that i sent Edited February 22, 2017 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1487754217' post='3242368'] Technically the buyer is responsible if they have arranged the courier. However if you you don't want the hassle of potential damage to the instrument by posting, then simply don't offer it as an option, or even mention it in your listing. State cash on collection only. If potential buyers can't accept this you don't have to sell it to them. If necessary remove any bids they have made and block them on eBay. [/quote] Yes, but then i wouldn't have the responsibility of potential damage if someone else booked the courier. Thats the whole point. If you're willing to pack & post, then you reach more buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Buyer pays by PayPal... YOU are responsible! Regardless of who packed it, paid for the courier, booked it; YOU will lose the fight and they will get a refund from PayPal if it is lost, damaged, 'claimed' as lost! Buyer pays by bank transfer etc... THEY are responsible! As you can't get a chargeback from anyone (assuming they don't pay by credit card), they can claim back from the courier in any of the above events. IMHO that is the simplest way to look at it and the grey areas will still fall into those two scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 So guitar gets dameged by his courier, and buyer gets refunded by PP...and then since he has all the courier info, which i dont have, he can claim back from them too, making a nice wad of cash on the deal ?? Maybe i shouldnt offer postage then, as Big Red stated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487754425' post='3242375'] Yes, but then i wouldn't have the responsibility of potential damage if someone else booked the courier. Thats the whole point. If you're willing to pack & post, then you reach more buyers. [/quote] But it seems from your OP that although you are willing to pack you are not willing to post (or at least organise the posting). IME organising the courier is the easy bit. You go on the Interparcel website and book their standard delivery via UPS with the appropriate insurance. Print out the shipping labels. Job done in about 5 minutes. Its properly packing up the instrument so that it won't get damaged on the way is the tricky bit. As a buyer I won't deal with people who insist on me organising the courier, because from my perspective if they can't do that then how can I trust them to get the packing right. As I said before if you don't want the responsibility of organising the courier, then don't offer shipping as an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Packing isnt that hard either if you have the right stuff, which i do have. I keep proper guitar boxes ( both inner shaped one and the big fat outer and of course bubble wrap ) from when i've bought guitars myself. But as you guys say, its probably in my interests to only have collection and no postage. Edited February 22, 2017 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I think you really have a simple choice, arrange the courier yourself and keep control of the process including any insurance or stick to collection only and accept that there will be fewer bidders and possibly that you will get a lower price. I've arranged couriers from my end as a buyer and it is a hassle for the buyer too as the couriers expect to deal only with their customer which makes pick up awkward. You'd think couriers would understand that there are people at both ends of their delivery chain As to this purchaser you now know he is a dealer and apparently a pushy demanding one. My experience with eBay is that they work well when there is a problem especially if you have a good reputation with them, and most people are incompetent rather than dishonest but if you have reservations then politely message him and say either that you do not wish to get involved with a courier or that you are not happy to sell to a dealer. Then block him if he bids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 It's this minefield of scams and 'dodgy' eBayers surrounded by red tape that doesn't really protect the seller that has put me off listing anything for sale on eBay. Last time I did, a guy broke the amp I sold him and then tried to get me to pay for the repair. Never again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I think many people miss the point in this by wrongly assuming eBay will mediate in any problems, sadly in my experience as a seller they simply find in favour of the buyer even when there is overwhelming evidence otherwise. That is why I don't sell on eBay anymore. This guy may be completely legitimate but might not, why risk it? From the other side, I took a chance and bought a bass off eBay it made sure I spoke to the seller before and confirmed condition and how it would be packaged and which courier (UPS) etc. He was brilliant and packed it in bubble wrap in a padded gigbag, in a box wrapped in bubble wrap inside another box. It was a good job too as the outer was pierced in three places and one had gone through the bubble wrap and pierced the inner. The bass was fine but you do wonder what some of these places do with the parcels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 Funny old thing ..i've sold guitars on this basis before - buyer arranges courier - and never had a problem. They email me the courier labels which i print off, pack the guitars and wait for the driver to turn up. But then i've not had a courier damage anything yet, so i havent experienced what happens under those circumstances I have told the dealer who messaged me that i'm not going to arrange the courier, so now he knows. He wont be bidding because i've stopped that I guess its personal collection only then ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 On a lighter note, i've just had a local guy message me to ask where abouts i was in the country and it looks like he's very interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I've just sold a bass which was collection only. The guy is getting his parents to collect it from me. He paid by PayPal. I'm not letting it go until I've seen and photographed their ID and taken a picture of them with the bass out of its case. Call me paranoid but that seems to me to be the best precautions against a chargeback i can take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyder Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [i][b][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But then i've not had a courier damage anything yet, so i havent experienced what happens under those circumstances.[/font][/color][/b][/i] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]This is the problem. When it goes ok its great, when it goes tits up s**t hits the fan.[/font][/color] Edited February 22, 2017 by spyder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyder Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487758221' post='3242433'] I've just sold a bass which was collection only. The guy is getting his parents to collect it from me. He paid by PayPal. I'm not letting it go until I've seen and photographed their ID and taken a picture of them with the bass out of its case. Call me paranoid but that seems to me to be the best precautions against a chargeback i can take. [/quote] [b]Even with photo evidence of the pickup you are opening yourself up for the scam. [/b] [b]He can still put a claim against you.... Paypal will ask for the tracking and you can't provided it. They will refund the buyer.[/b] [b]Please be aware of this.[/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='spyder' timestamp='1487758300' post='3242434'] [i][b][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But then i've not had a courier damage anything yet, so i havent experienced what happens under those circumstances.[/font][/color][/b][/i] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]This is the problem. When it goes ok its great, when it goes tits up s**t its the fan.[/font][/color] [/quote] Yup, i hear it makes quite a mess Edited February 22, 2017 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1487753068' post='3242350'] In my case, I had arranged the courier, but won't be doing it again. I went up to Leicester last Sunday to meet a Basschatter from Leeds who bought a synth from me, and am going to Birmingham next Saturday to meet someone from Chester who I have just bought a bass from. Bit of a hassle but better then stuff getting damaged. No experience with rip offs, no one has ever tried anything like that with me. [/quote] That's what I always do. I've been all over the place over the years, but have never had a problem. I've bought and sold basses in no end of railway station car parks, tube stations and coffee shops . You'd be amazed at the savings you can get by booking the train a week or so in advance. I always use national rail enquiries for the tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazed Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Regarding the PayPal thing, as I understand it... If the buyer pays using the no fees gift option, they cannot make a chargeback. If that's any help. I'm also very wary of using couriers having witnessed several delivery drivers empty their vans on the pavement when looking for a parcel and then throwing everything back when they've found it. Hope the local buyer works out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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