Cab manufacturers figures???

[28mistertee]

Probably another amateur question but what figures are the most relevant when researching into cabs. Frequency range, SPL etc???
Basically I've been looking for a 115 or maybe a 410, I've been advised to look into 15s as I use the low B a lot. I was looking at Orange OBC115 or 410 or Ashdown ABM115 when I came across Ashdowns Foundation 410 which according to specs the frequency goes as low as 30hz. How accurate are these figures?
My other surprise is the Eden 410xlt which I've heard is renowned for its bottom end yet the spec frequency only goes as low as 50hz.
Am I missing something here or should I be more interested in the SPL figures.
Thanks in advance.

[markstuk]

You need to see the frequency plot for the cab - the Ashdown could be -15db at 30 hz, and the eden 0db down at 50 Hz.. Not comparing like with like.. Ashdown are annoyingly reticient when it comes to useful detail about pretty much everything they make..

There is a frequency plot here http://ashdownmusic.com/files/product/file/datasheet_20150224063841_74985.pdf - not sure whether it's measured or calculated... But you see the roll off from 50 Hz..

Edited March 1, 2017 by markstuk

[grandad]

I would echo much previous advice on BC and say trust your ears. A quick web search found this fairly friendly item:

. [url="http://www.ecoustics.com/articles/understanding-speaker-frequency-response/"]http://www.ecoustics...uency-response/[/url]

and then this rather interesting item:

[url="http://www.post-gazette.com/business/tech-news/2007/05/25/Sound-Advice-Bose-keeps-sound-specs-under-wraps/stories/200705250301"]http://www.post-gaze...es/200705250301[/url]

Most articles seem to understandably concentrate on hi-fi systems.

Edited March 1, 2017 by grandad

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1488399103' post='3248682']
There is a frequency plot here [url="http://ashdownmusic.com/files/product/file/datasheet_20150224063841_74985.pdf"]http://ashdownmusic....63841_74985.pdf[/url] - not sure whether it's measured or calculated... But you see the roll off from 50 Hz..
[/quote]I don't know how they arrived at that, but a bass cab with that response would be all but unusable. The black trace looks to be the raw response of a driver, measured mounted in a wall. Not a very good driver at that. The blue and red plots appear to be predicted response charts, but what they predict is a cab with no significant low frequency output. It's almost inconceivable even with a mediocre driver that the predicted response of a ported cab would be that bad, so my guess is that the charts were prepared by Ashdown's pet chimpanzee.

OP, what's most important is an accurate measured response chart, at 1 watt and at full rated power. Catch 22: Virtually no one publishes them.

[Chienmortbb]

Bill is right of course but I suspect there are many worse that that Ashdown plot out there. The other useful figure would be the off axis response,

[28mistertee]

It's fair to say then as Bill says the figures mean diddly squat, problem arises for amateurs like myself you don't know what your buying. Trying before you buy is all well and good but not always viable especially if you have to drive a couple of hours to view a cab and you nine times out of ten you can't hear it at a decent volume or in a gig situation.
I play mostly in standard but the we're venturing into B more and more now so I need a speaker that will handle that.

[28mistertee]

[quote name='grandad' timestamp='1488400316' post='3248699']
I would echo much previous advice on BC and say trust your ears. A quick web search found this fairly friendly item:
Interesting links, thank you 😊
. [url="http://www.ecoustics.com/articles/understanding-speaker-frequency-response/"]http://www.ecoustics...uency-response/[/url]

and then this rather interesting item:

[url="http://www.post-gazette.com/business/tech-news/2007/05/25/Sound-Advice-Bose-keeps-sound-specs-under-wraps/stories/200705250301"]http://www.post-gaze...es/200705250301[/url]

Most articles seem to understandably concentrate on hi-fi systems.
[/quote]

[markstuk]

Also the advice you were given about a 1x15 or 4x10 for low frequencies is not true or false. Driver size had little to do with it. A decent 2x12 for me is currently the best compromise.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='28mistertee' timestamp='1488398510' post='3248669']
Probably another amateur question but what figures are the most relevant when researching into cabs. Frequency range, SPL etc???
Basically I've been looking for a 115 or maybe a 410, I've been advised to look into 15s as I use the low B a lot. I was looking at Orange OBC115 or 410 or Ashdown ABM115 when I came across Ashdowns Foundation 410 which according to specs the frequency goes as low as 30hz. How accurate are these figures?
My other surprise is the Eden 410xlt which I've heard is renowned for its bottom end yet the spec frequency only goes as low as 50hz.
Am I missing something here or should I be more interested in the SPL figures.
Thanks in advance.
[/quote]
I'm not as cynical as many over manufacturers figures but it does pay to be sceptical. In general the figures they give in the manuals often vary from the claims in their advertising so if you want to look up their specs go and see if there are downloadable manuals.

In the end though you need a lot of techie knowledge to interpret the figures, which aren't all measured in the same way, and even if you can they will tell you little about what the amp or speakers in question actually sound like. You simply can't make a sensible buying decision based on figures.

Having said that an understanding of the numbers is probably something we all acquire over time and no knowledge is a bad thing.

Let's have a look a the low frequency response first. Rounded off 30Hz is low B and 40Hz is bottom E. However we can't really hear those frequencies very well and unless you had the pickup on the 12th fret it wouldn't detect them very well. Roughly speaking only 10% of a bass note is fundamental and that is buried beneath what we really hear, which are the harmonics. Bassiness is often just as much about the balance between the different harmonics as the actual note played. The crucial area for a bassy sound is generally around the 80-160Hz area. So stop worrying about frequencies and whether your system needs to change for your low B and start trying out speakers and amps with your own bass. If it sounds good it is good.

On the techie side that frequency response graph for the Ashdown is just like a thousand others give or take. They'll all be the same shape more or less, the hills and valleys will be different heights and in different spots and that will affect the sound but few people will be able to guess how they sound from that info. What they will all do is droop down at the bottom end and at the top.

That's why a frequency range of 50-6000Hz doesn't tell you much. Speakers don't cut out frequencies they just droop! Hi fi speakers usually give the response at -3dB and that is the figure used when you are designing speakers. Most bass speakers don't tell you where they measure the lowest frequency from but 10dB down is a common figure, that's what I used in a design I published here. That Eden may have a perfectly decent bass and the Ashdown may be better or worse, without more information you just can't tell from a single number.

Finally the bit you are missing is that we can't really hear deep bass, almost nothing below 50Hz and it is routinely removed from the PA and in studio recordings as unwanted noise. You'll come across high pass filters like the Thumpinator that are used by bassists to kill everything below a certain frequency, they usually report that they can't hear any diffeerence in the low notes other than that everything sounds cleaner.

[28mistertee]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1488441360' post='3248901']

I'm not as cynical as many over manufacturers figures but it does pay to be sceptical. In general the figures they give in the manuals often vary from the claims in their advertising so if you want to look up their specs go and see if there are downloadable manuals.

In the end though you need a lot of techie knowledge to interpret the figures, which aren't all measured in the same way, and even if you can they will tell you little about what the amp or speakers in question actually sound like. You simply can't make a sensible buying decision based on figures.

Having said that an understanding of the numbers is probably something we all acquire over time and no knowledge is a bad thing.

Let's have a look a the low frequency response first. Rounded off 30Hz is low B and 40Hz is bottom E. However we can't really hear those frequencies very well and unless you had the pickup on the 12th fret it wouldn't detect them very well. Roughly speaking only 10% of a bass note is fundamental and that is buried beneath what we really hear, which are the harmonics. Bassiness is often just as much about the balance between the different harmonics as the actual note played. The crucial area for a bassy sound is generally around the 80-160Hz area. So stop worrying about frequencies and whether your system needs to change for your low B and start trying out speakers and amps with your own bass. If it sounds good it is good.

On the techie side that frequency response graph for the Ashdown is just like a thousand others give or take. They'll all be the same shape more or less, the hills and valleys will be different heights and in different spots and that will affect the sound but few people will be able to guess how they sound from that info. What they will all do is droop down at the bottom end and at the top.

That's why a frequency range of 50-6000Hz doesn't tell you much. Speakers don't cut out frequencies they just droop! Hi fi speakers usually give the response at -3dB and that is the figure used when you are designing speakers. Most bass speakers don't tell you where they measure the lowest frequency from but 10dB down is a common figure, that's what I used in a design I published here. That Eden may have a perfectly decent bass and the Ashdown may be better or worse, without more information you just can't tell from a single number.

Finally the bit you are missing is that we can't really hear deep bass, almost nothing below 50Hz and it is routinely removed from the PA and in studio recordings as unwanted noise. You'll come across high pass filters like the Thumpinator that are used by bassists to kill everything below a certain frequency, they usually report that they can't hear any diffeerence in the low notes other than that everything sounds cleaner.
[/quote]

Thank you for the well explained response. Maybe a filter could be what I need to remove the low frequencies. It's not necessarily the need to have a really bassy low B but more the need to have an efficient set up that doesn't fart out and have the clarity of the low notes there.
I've tried various eq settings but another analogy is it's maybe mixed driver sizes (I use a 212 and a 210) currently)?? All sounds great in standard tuning but below that can get muddy sounding and I've even made the drivers pop on occasion. I've read on here before that maybe a 210 and a 115 would be a better bet as the cone areas are closer matched in both cabs.
However my other train of thought is to just run a single efficient cab with one size driver. I used to run a Marshall 412 and I loved that sound but sold it because it was a big heavy thing, mind you I have a van now which makes life a lot easier 😉

[markstuk]

What cabs do you have currently. ? My goto cab at the moment is a barefaced big twin 2 and there is no b farting.

[chris_b]

You have not been given good advice. You don't need a 15" for a 5 string bass. That might have been true in the 60's but certainly isn't these days.

I play 5ers and have used 10's, 12's and 15's. The best sound I've got was Bergantino 10's and 12's and now Barefaced 12's. Low frequencies will use up amp power so if you're playing loud get an amp rated accordingly. I use 500 and 800 watt amps. Don't worry about looking for a cab that will reproduce 30hz or lower. You can get a great low B sound out of an Ampeg 810 and that's rated somewhere about 60 hz. My Bergs are rated at 40 hz and the B was amazing.

IMO unless you're talking about 810's 2 cabs usually sound better than 1. More speakers means more volume, a better tone and less potential for damage.

[Phil Starr]

If you want to get the right set up for you then people will help if you give them an indication of a budget. I have to say that those people who start adding extra cabs to adapt the sound they already have end up changing gear for a very long time and spend a lot of money. It really is a better approach to start with a cab that sounds how you want it and then double up if that's the sound you like but you need more volume.

You say it sounds muddy and you've heard your speakers in distress. I'm assuming this is playing live?

[28mistertee]

810s are overkill I think in pubs although I have considered going midway and getting a 610, not too much of a problem either now I have a van and helpful band members.
Would it be possible that the mixed drivers are the problem? A two cab solution is ideal but maybe different to what I'm running. I got a 210 and a 212 rated 400w each but now have a 400w all valve which I love. I just want to get the best out of it and feel stuck at the crossroads at the minute.

[28mistertee]

Apologies budget wise I'm happy to spend around 500-600 pounds for one cab with the train of thought to add later. This should give me something decent especially used.
I may even try using just my 212 at next gig and see how that sounds then I could always buy another.

[markstuk]

What make and model are your current cabs ?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='28mistertee' timestamp='1488449924' post='3248995']
Would it be possible that the mixed drivers are the problem?
[/quote]The problem is that the specs you need to know are the specs that manufacturers don't reveal. One reason why they don't is that many don't know themselves how their cabs perform, that totally botched chart from Ashdown being a prime example. Manufacturers talk about inches and watts, the two least significant factors where both low frequency extension and output are concerned. Your only options are to try before you buy, or to build your own. The big advantage to building your own is that you're not buying a pig in a poke, you know what drivers are in your cabs and what they're capable of.

[28mistertee]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1488450798' post='3249003']
What make and model are your current cabs ?
[/quote]
Glock 212 and 210, I may try a single cab at the next gig then buy another the same.

[28mistertee]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1488459139' post='3249107']
The problem is that the specs you need to know are the specs that manufacturers don't reveal. One reason why they don't is that many don't know themselves how their cabs perform, that totally botched chart from Ashdown being a prime example. Manufacturers talk about inches and watts, the two least significant factors where both low frequency extension and output are concerned. Your only options are to try before you buy, or to build your own. The big advantage to building your own is that you're not buying a pig in a poke, you know what drivers are in your cabs and what they're capable of.
[/quote]
Maybe I'm getting to concerned on figures, good advice. As for building my own I wouldn't know where to start. That said sounds like an interesting idea.

[markstuk]

[quote name='28mistertee' timestamp='1488460252' post='3249129']
Glock 212 and 210, I may try a single cab at the next gig then buy another the same.
[/quote]

Bill and Phil are generally good people to listen to.. However I'm a bit surprised your Glocks are having issues with standard 5 string tunings... If fact, really surprised.. Could it be your bass?

Not sure where you're based, but you do need to try before you buy... If you tell us your location we can probably find someone living close who has a good rig to compare with or find a shop..

[28mistertee]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1488460894' post='3249136']


Bill and Phil are generally good people to listen to.. However I'm a bit surprised your Glocks are having issues with standard 5 string tunings... If fact, really surprised.. Could it be your bass?

Not sure where you're based, but you do need to try before you buy... If you tell us your location we can probably find someone living close who has a good rig to compare with or find a shop..
[/quote]
Yes had lots of good advice off many on here in the past, this forum has helped me out no end. I was thinking mismatched driver sizes although maybe it could be eq because I've gone to an all valve head. I do like the cabs things just get muddy when in B territory. I have a 4 string tuned to BEAD as I don't get on with 5s all that great. I'm near Leicester by the way.

[markstuk]

I'm inclined to think your bass may be a player here... Why not pop down to Bass Direct in Warwick - about an hours drive from you... That will at least let you isolate the various components.. Or you're welcome to pop over to me (a little bit further) - I have five strings, different amps and cabs... Bring your stuff along as well..

[chris_b]

I'm assuming you mean the Double 212 and the Duo 210? There are various versions, 4ohm, 8ohm and 16ohm. Which are yours?

Glockenklang say the Double 212 can be used with all of their other cabs. That indicates mixed cabs are not an issue.

What bass and amp are you using? Glock's are aimed at the clear sounding end of the market so if your sound is "muddy" it's got to be you, your bass or your amp. If your amp is new, what did you use before and did you have this problem then? A 400 watt valve amp is going to be a monster so do you get this problem at low and medium volume levels? Do you use pedals?

[Phil Starr]

I think we are homing in on something here. You already have good gear and shouldn't have trouble getting a good if not great tone and being able to hear yourself without stressing the speakers. Mixing speakers aren't causing the problems you describe BTW. With the sort of budget you have you can expect to get pretty much a top flight set up which matches with the tone you want.

I think you need to sort out the problem you have now, and then only upgrade once that is solved if you still want to change your basic tone.

I'm suspecting some problems with eq here and maybe some with how your band set up their sound, either of those cabs alone should be loud enough for you to play without stressing them, so both together should be a breeze. With your bass strung BEAD I'm guessing you are aiming for a deep,dark sound. How do you have your tone settings? I can only think that you are boosting the bass if you are getting popping noises from your speakers.

Update, I've just seen you are getting a great tone in standard tuning, have you simply down tuned to B or did you change the strings?

[28mistertee]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1488463769' post='3249181']
I'm assuming you mean the Double 212 and the Duo 210? There are various versions, 4ohm, 8ohm and 16ohm. Which are yours?

Glockenklang say the Double 212 can be used with all of their other cabs. That indicates mixed cabs are not an issue.

What bass and amp are you using? Glock's are aimed at the clear sounding end of the market so if your sound is "muddy" it's got to be you, your bass or your amp. If your amp is new, what did you use before and did you have this problem then? A 400 watt valve amp is going to be a monster so do you get this problem at low and medium volume levels? Do you use pedals?
[/quote]

We use 3 tunings so I use 3 basses where my G&L SB1 is in B which is the problem tuning. The pickups are very powerful so that could be problem. Amp I have a Mywatt400 and I have a Sansamp DI programmable mainly to help keeping the volume of all 3 basses at the same level. Cabs are both 8ohm. As Mark said I need to try other options I think just to eliminate problems.