Where was the bass????

[JamesBass]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1488920801' post='3252986']
Saw The Musical Box at Pompey Guildhall last year and the bass player's Rick was clear as hell across it's whole range. I wonder if the crew try for a '70's mix.'
And while I'm on it (climbing onto soapbox), all this kick drum nonsense has led to pub drummers insisting on it being amplified however small the venue is.
[/quote]
Of all the venues in that area, I'm including Soton, they have the best sound. I've worked there and gigged there and I've never had a horrific sound there.

The best sound I've ever heard was from the Dome in Brighton. A very balanced sound and a good engineer!

As far as the bad sound engineer goes, I tend to agree with most people, excuses don't wash with me, not in today's world of modern gear with digital, saveable settings. When I engineer I always start with drums first, then bass, then guitar, then anything else, then vocals. Then I insist no matter what that we have a full band run through to get accurate settings. I ALWAYS EQ to suit the singer, everything else is just backing - that is a sweeping generalisation I am aware, but 99% of the time you have to favour the vocalist as they sing the melody, and in western music melody is number 1.

[la bam]

as above - that's the way I do it when mixing our bands. Bit, a genuine question, how do you do it for the singer (eq wise as stated) when they're the last to be added to the mix? - genuine question - do you then go back down and eq everything else once happy with the singer?

[Monkey Steve]

I tend to agree with the issue of sound men who think "this is what this type of music sounds like" rather than speaking to the bands and listening to what is being played. Whenever I've played in a rock or metal band with two guitars the bass is disregarded because the sound men simply don't understand what the role of the bass is (drive and melody) and assume that it's just thumping along behind the rhythm guitar.

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1488889615' post='3252642']
I saw Cannibal Corpse a couple of years ago, Alex Webster is one of the most talented bassists in metal, but he was completely inaudbible, only time I heard him at all was when he hit a couple of notes between songs and during the bass break in Hammer Smashed Face. Very disappointing, but my actual point is that the person on the sound desk was their tour manager! So even when bands bring their own people out, who should know how to mix the band, it's still no guarantee of a decent mix.

The rest of the band sounded great, but clearly the bass had been sacrificed for guitar, kick and snare tone.
[/quote]

In a similar musical vein, I saw Akercocke a couple of times on their tour last year and at both venues they had almost inaudible rhythm guitars for the first couple of songs, then the sound man woke up and suddenly the faders got shoved up to the right levels. I wondered at the time if it was to do with them using Kemper heads and those not responding as expected to gig conditions.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Monkey Steve

[Bbiigg Kev]

Whats the point ?

[JamesBass]

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1488983707' post='3253487']
as above - that's the way I do it when mixing our bands. Bit, a genuine question, how do you do it for the singer (eq wise as stated) when they're the last to be added to the mix? - genuine question - do you then go back down and eq everything else once happy with the singer?
[/quote]

It depends on what time I have. I know where a singer is most likely to need a bit of a cut or even sometimes a bit of a boost within the frequency range, typically between 800-1500Hz so that's often a go to area. I personally would rather I hear everything than feel it so most members of the band get a bass cut as standard. I find you just open the mix up a bit by removing some of the overbearing low frequencies. Especially on the kick.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1489014402' post='3253825']

I find you just open the mix up a bit by removing some of the overbearing low frequencies. Especially on the kick.
[/quote]

Noted - but how about actually turning down the kick - in fact the whole kit - it seems to have only been in recent years that drums have been mixed louder generally. I don't understand why the drums are mixed as three or four 'instruments' and given equal prominence in a mix because it clearly ends up overpowering the music - rather like having four guitars or keyboards.

Listen to disco mixes of the late 70s on original 12 in singles - they somehow manage to have prominent bass drum, bass guitar and everything else mixed so that it plays its part. I'm guessing there was no 'fill the entire sonic range by pressing a button' and auto EQ ing - basically losing separation.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1489017274' post='3253841']


Noted - but how about actually turning down the kick - in fact the whole kit - it seems to have only been in recent years that drums have been mixed louder generally. I don't understand why the drums are mixed as three or four 'instruments' and given equal prominence in a mix because it clearly ends up overpowering the music - rather like having four guitars or keyboards.

Listen to disco mixes of the late 70s on original 12 in singles - they somehow manage to have prominent bass drum, bass guitar and everything else mixed so that it plays its part. I'm guessing there was no 'fill the entire sonic range by pressing a button' and auto EQ ing - basically losing separation.
[/quote]
I never have them loud, they are there to give the rhythmic pulse, not to swamp the band!

Studio recordings are a different kettle of fish! But the same principles are largely transferable, with levels anyway!

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1489017274' post='3253841']
Noted - but how about actually turning down the kick - in fact the whole kit - it seems to have only been in recent years that drums have been mixed louder generally. I don't understand why the drums are mixed as three or four 'instruments' and given equal prominence in a mix because it clearly ends up overpowering the music - rather like having four guitars or keyboards.

Listen to disco mixes of the late 70s on original 12 in singles - they somehow manage to have prominent bass drum, bass guitar and everything else mixed so that it plays its part. I'm guessing there was no 'fill the entire sonic range by pressing a button' and auto EQ ing - basically losing separation.
[/quote]
Is it just me or is this a problem in studio mixes as well? I don't know if some engineers are still trying to work an addiction to gated reverb out of their system, or something, but the drums on some modern albums seem to be brought up in the mix to the point that they're almost killing the groove. Not just on rock records, where there still seems to be a fetish for triggered samples rather than actual drum sounds - the drums on a lot of modern blues albums seem to be mixed far too high. I know a lot of blues guitarists are trying to ape Stevie Ray Vaughan still, but did nobody point out that if you look past his guitar playing, the mix of the rhythm section on some of his albums is dire?

On the other hand, I'm listening to a recent Nick Cave album this morning, where the drums have a much more modest space in the mix, but have not lost any of the drive or punch. The whole ensemble is much more pleasing on the ear.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1489050911' post='3253928']
Is it just me or is this a problem in studio mixes as well? I don't know if some engineers are still trying to work an addiction to gated reverb out of their system, or something, but the drums on some modern albums seem to be brought up in the mix to the point that they're almost killing the groove. Not just on rock records, where there still seems to be a fetish for triggered samples rather than actual drum sounds - the drums on a lot of modern blues albums seem to be mixed far too high. I know a lot of blues guitarists are trying to ape Stevie Ray Vaughan still, but did nobody point out that if you look past his guitar playing, the mix of the rhythm section on some of his albums is dire?

On the other hand, I'm listening to a recent Nick Cave album this morning, where the drums have a much more modest space in the mix, but have not lost any of the drive or punch. The whole ensemble is much more pleasing on the ear.
[/quote]no it's not just you, fashion come and fashions go, at present kick drums (as well as the rest of the drums) seem to be mixed loud, in the 80's/90's it was the snare that was ridiculously loud, trouble is listening to a track years later it stands out like a sore thumb, bit like someone walking around in flares these days

[Painy]

I went to a gig at the UEA (University of East Anglia) about 18 years ago and watched an interesting performance consisting of an hour and a quarter of solo kick drum. I thought this was a bold and exciting concept which only fell down in its execution because the other members of Reef insisted on playing their instruments and singing (apparently unamplified - from what I could hear anyway) in the background.
A bit more recently I saw Alterbridge at the same venue. Not quite so bad a mix (although the bass was that vague inaudible low rumble) but for some reason the sound guy liked the sound of a kick drum enough that he'd eq'd the snare into such a dull thud that it was almost indistinguishable from the kick.

Best live sounds I've experienced where the bass has been clear and defined and at an appropriate level in the mix have been Glenn Hughes all 3 times I've seen him and likewise Greenday the 3 times I've also seen them.

[Rocker]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1489050911' post='3253928']

Is it just me or is this a problem in studio mixes as well? I don't know if some engineers are still trying to work an addiction to gated reverb out of their system, or something, but the drums on some modern albums seem to be brought up in the mix to the point that they're almost killing the groove. Not just on rock records, where there still seems to be a fetish for triggered samples rather than actual drum sounds - the drums on a lot of modern blues albums seem to be mixed far too high. I know a lot of blues guitarists are trying to ape Stevie Ray Vaughan still, but did nobody point out that if you look past his guitar playing, the mix of the rhythm section on some of his albums is dire?

On the other hand, I'm listening to a recent Nick Cave album this morning, where the drums have a much more modest space in the mix, but have not lost any of the drive or punch. The whole ensemble is much more pleasing on the ear.
[/quote]


Good points, well made. Perhaps the reason is to try to sound good or impressive through earbuds rather than normal hi-fi (even basic level) systems. Then compress the file further and you need 'something' to keep the listeners attention so make the drums louder. No excuse in a live performance though.