Bass preamp DI into PA (and no bass amp)? Can it work well?

[Al Krow]

Guys - I've got a couple of gigs coming up very shortly where transporting a bass rig is going to be tricky. Can I just use a pre-amp / DI direct into the FOH PA system? I'm guessing I may need to couple with an in ear monitor (any recommendations?)

If so I'm thinking that any / all of the following pedals would do the trick:

Mesa Subway Preamp DI
Aguilar TH Preamp DI
Tech21 VT Bass DI or Sansamp Para Driver DI v2 (see also http://basschat.co.uk/topic/305458-ampeg-scr-di-and-tech-21-vt-bass-di-tech-21-sansamp-bddi-v2-your-views-please/ )

[update: Darkglass Vintage Deluxe / Ultra - are also possibilities but based on the comments below are probably more suited for use with a rig rather than as stand alone DI pedals]

Any particular pros / cons to any of the above?

I hear good things about the Noble preamp DI, but I'm not looking to stretch quite that far in terms of budget.

Anything else I should be aware of / need to be careful about?

Edited May 11, 2017 by Al Krow

[Lozz196]

I`ve done this a couple of times, using my old Zoom B3. As I was using Markbass amps at the time I chose the B3 as it had Markbass amp-modelling on it. Set the cab emulation to zero, plug into FOH and as long as the monitor mix was fine - and in all cases it was enough for me get by with - I got my sound out front, same as I would have with DI-ing from my amp. The B3 also has an on-board tuner so pretty much one pedal doing it all.

[Al Krow]

Thanks Lozz, just acquired a B3n but that has no DI out! Wasn't thinking that was going to be a limitation quite so soon!

[rmorris]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1492691271' post='3282378']
Thanks Lozz, just acquired a B3n but that has no DI out! Wasn't thinking that was going to be a limitation quite so soon!
[/quote]

Main thing is monitoring - being able to get a decent signal back through the wedges (or whatever) or using IEM.
DI - if there's a FOH PA there should be some straightforward DI boxes around to plug your B3n into ?

[JimBobTTD]

I've done it a couple of times. I hated it the first time but I have become used to it a bit now and find it mostly ok. If you have good monitoring, it is no problem and no different from playing with an amp (someone else's amp, albeit) other than the sound is coming from in front of you rather than behind. Er...sort of...

[Al Krow]

But would you recommend DI'ing directly without a preamp, particularly with a passive bass?

[bazzbass]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1492732886' post='3282826']
But would you recommend DI'ing directly without a preamp, particularly with a passive bass?
[/quote]

usually yes, the sound guys usually prefer a dry mix anyway.

Just be aware that you need an active DI with a passive bass and vice versa, though I've used passive DIs with passive basses in a pinch.

[Happy Jack]

Passive DI works fine with passive basses, but the signal needs to be amplified somewhere in the chain.

If you plug a passive bass through a passive DI then you'll need to go into a mic level input on the mixer (almost invariably an XLR socket these days). The mic level input has its own preamp on each channel strip.

If you plug a passive bass through an active DI - i.e. an outboard preamp - then the signal reaching the mixer is already at line level and should be go into a line level input on the mixer (almost invariably a 1/4" jack socket).

You can plug a line level source into a mic level input but of course it will be very 'hot' for that input, and you should start with the gain set almost to zero to avoid blowing anything.

Agreed about the dry mix, and FX pedals can also play havoc with the input levels and screw things up for the sound guy.

[paul_5]

I've done it, but bear in mind that you're completely at the mercy of the engineer - I remember one gig where the chap on the desk was less than competent and I ended up not being able to hear anything bass on stage; just guitar and drums.

Not braved it since.

[JimBobTTD]

The last three band rehearsals have been done using my trusty MXR M81 Bass Preamp pedal, DI to the PA. I use the same setup at home to headphones. It all sounds rather good, actually. Monitoring is a bit awkward, but this is due to the limitations of the room rather than my lack of amp.

I shall be looking at pedal compressors (yet again) as it seems that my amp - in a rack with a rack compressor - will be at home for the foreseeable.

[bazzbass]

we rehearsed our new originals band with electric drums, two acoustics and my bass all going thru the PA, no amps.

I used my Tech21 Bass Fly Rig and it was a great load in, one gig bag with bass and fly rig hehe

But yeah,you are at the mercy of the mixer even more than usual with this method, need good foldback.

[CliveT]

Whenever you play a stage bigger than a very small pub, church etc you'll expect to go into the PA and that will usually mean a DI. I used to do this regularly with a MXR M80 but am happy to use any decent DI box. If I take my own little Markbass I'll DI from that too.
You're always at the mercy of the FOH engineer for the final mix so you have to trust them. Monitors can be a compromise if using no amp so make sure you can hear yourself in the soundcheck.

[natjag]

I play in theatres with a tribute show and don't use an amp. I have used a supplied DI, I borrowed a motown DI from someone, but prefer a Vox AC30 amp sim unit I've had a few years now. They don't make it now. I am looking also at the Darkglass Vintage Deluxe unit you mention.

[dave_bass5]

I did this a few years ago. I brought a Behringer BD21 for this reason. Worked extremely well except it felt very strange hearing my sound only coming from in front of me through the monitor.

[natjag]

I've taken the plunge and purchased the Vintage Ultra. So far at home I'm very happy with it, does what I want it to do. Wont get to use it in anger until the weekend.

[scalpy]

I'm thinking about a jhs colour box for this (and many other) application.

[Bigwan]

On this topic, does anyone feel cab simulation is an important consideration when DIing without a rig? Thinking of my own impending IEM setup...

[Elfrasho]

[quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1494500928' post='3296494']
On this topic, does anyone feel cab simulation is an important consideration when DIing without a rig? Thinking of my own impending IEM setup...
[/quote]

Personally... if using effects then I'd say it's important. Although not all preamps are the same. Fuzz and distortion can sound harsh.

I've mainly stuck to digital (ie multifx) preamp for this reason as they tend tobyqve more control over how much 'cab SIM ' is comibg through.

[randythoades]

I always DI into PA using either Tech 21 VT bass DI or a cheapy Joyo Dr J Sparrow DI (and to be fair the sound difference is very marginal).

We all use IEM live and the drummer and vocalist use IEM for rehearsals too so I need to be through the mixer in order to send a mix to them too. At rehearsals I don't worry about IEM so us the Effects return socket on amp to bypass all the preamp stage and just use as clean poweramp for my own (and guitarist) monitoring. Works really well if you have access to a decent PA (particularly if there is a sub).

[Bigwan]

[quote name='Elfrasho' timestamp='1494504395' post='3296541']


Personally... if using effects then I'd say it's important. Although not all preamps are the same. Fuzz and distortion can sound harsh.

I've mainly stuck to digital (ie multifx) preamp for this reason as they tend tobyqve more control over how much 'cab SIM ' is comibg through.
[/quote]

That was my thinking. I'd been looking at the vintage ultra (just sold my darkglass M900 to go in-ears and LOVED the vintage channel on it) but without cab sim I'd be a bit nervous. Lots of folk seem to be using the OmniCabSim dlx with the Darkglass stuff, but I'm not shelling out that much for a cab sim. Might settle myself with my Zoom B3 for EQ and amp/cab sim and my Guma Antique (Darkglass Vintage clone) in front. Does sound a bit digital though...

[dannybuoy]

I used to run a Vintage Deluxe into a headphone amp as my practice setup and it didn't need a cab sim at all. The Darkglass pedals have quite a bit of filtering in them already making them usable for recording direct, especially the Vintage which is a lot darker than the B7K.

[dave_bass5]

The most versatile one Ive had (and still do) is the VTBass DI. I know its not the best but its the one i use for home practice the most, and you can turn the cab sim on and off. Personally i dont pay much attention to the cab sims, other than they are just part of the overal EQ system. sometimes ill have it on, sometimes not, but never on just because I'm not using a cab etc.
I do have a DG VMT and as Danny said, it is a bit darker sounding, which I find is ok for live gigs with a rig, but a bit too dark as just a preamp without a rig. to me this is an addition to a preamp rather than an all in one.

Edited May 11, 2017 by dave_bass5

[Al Krow]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1494526888' post='3296791']
The most versatile one Ive had (and still do) is the VTBass DI. I know its not the best but its the one i use for home practice the most, and you can turn the cab sim on and off. Personally i dont pay much attention to the cab sims, other than they are just part of the overal EQ system. sometime sill have ti on, sometimes not, but never on just because I'm not using a cab etc.
I do have a DG VMT and as Danny said, it is a bit darker sounding, which I find is ok for live gigs with a rig, but a bit too dark as just a preamp without a rig. to me this is an addition to a preamp rather than an all in one.
[/quote]

I think I'm in complete agreement with all of that! I'm going to modify the Q to include the VT Bass DI and Para Driver DI v2 and suggest that the DG is probably best used with a rig rather than a stand alone.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Al Krow

[jimfist]

[quote name='Elfrasho' timestamp='1494504395' post='3296541']
Personally... if using effects then I'd say it's important. Although not all preamps are the same. Fuzz and distortion can sound harsh.

I've mainly stuck to digital (ie multifx) preamp for this reason as they tend tobyqve more control over how much 'cab SIM ' is comibg through.
[/quote]

Cabinet simulation is nothing more than EQ and filtering that resembles a bass speaker cabinet, either generally (using filters and parametric EQ) or specifically (using digital cabinet Impulse Responses). If you were to analyze the EQ curve of a mic'd bass cab, you'd see that there are usually many, many EQ notches and some complexity that is difficult to capture using traditional EQ...but...you can get close if you know what you're trying to EQ. However, I'm of the opinion that it is the complexity of the EQ response curve that gives a mic'd cabinet its unique character. Whether either one is better than the other is purely subjective.

[Bigwan]

[quote name='jimfist' timestamp='1494556428' post='3296972']
Cabinet simulation is nothing more than EQ and filtering that resembles a bass speaker cabinet, either generally (using filters and parametric EQ) or specifically (using digital cabinet Impulse Responses). If you were to analyze the EQ curve of a mic'd bass cab, you'd see that there are usually many, many EQ notches and some complexity that is difficult to capture using traditional EQ...but...you can get close if you know what you're trying to EQ. However, I'm of the opinion that it is the complexity of the EQ response curve that gives a mic'd cabinet its unique character. Whether either one is better than the other is purely subjective.
[/quote]

A good point... which has me thinking about the Tech 21 Q Strip as a DI. I have like 10 different drive pedals I could run in front of it...